The swinging industry needs to be less homophobic to men

[DBL D]

Fuse, are you saying that couples won't allow their SO to experience anything that is not normal to them? Or that you can or can't mingle the two professsions?

I have never placed those restrictions on Fem D...I want her to experience what she wants to, irrespective of my desires. That's what true freedom means to me. If I want to be with a guy, she should (in a perfect world) accept that and whether she likes it or not, not consider it anymore a threat to our relationship than if she were to want to be with a lady...even if I didn't want that to happen.

Male D

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by DBL D

Fuse, are you saying that couples won't allow their SO to experience anything that is not normal to them? Or that you can or can't mingle the two professsions?

I have never placed those restrictions on Fem D...I want her to experience what she wants to, irrespective of my desires. That's what true freedom means to me. If I want to be with a guy, she should (in a perfect world) accept that and whether she likes it or not, not consider it anymore a threat to our relationship than if she were to want to be with a lady...even if I didn't want that to happen.

Male D

I'm not sure what you mean by "professions", but I don't think my posts had anything in them about what folks would "allow" their SO to do at all. It's all about what club clientele want to see or don't want to see. The question of what one spouse thinks is "normal" or acceptable is a subject for private negotiation and only slightly related to what is okay to do in front of a crowd.

If Mr. Fuse wanted to be with a guy, my only concern would be that STD's are more easily communicated via anal sex, so I'd make sure he knew I wanted him to be as safe as possible about it. I might even watch, even though it's not like a guy watching two women... I don't have a fantasy of jumping into the middle of two guys. But we'd go in a private room, out of deference for what others may not want to see. Simple as that.

About "true freedom"...In the end, we can't control each other and shouldn't want to do that. We can all do what we want to, ultimately. But I do think our desires and comfort levels should matter to each other. True freedom might be granted, but that doesn't mean our feelings don't have consequences. I think a balance is necessary. Freedom and responsibility are two sides of the same coin.

[Thrax]

Originally Posted by MulderNScully

I think there is a club in Pennsylvania which is open to all regardless of sexual preference. I can't remember it, but I did find it intriguing as to a club making such pains to accomdiate to all who are into the lifestyle ethos.

Very good topic! One I have always wondered about not because I'm gay or anything but seeing patterns and attitudes regarding male/male intimacy.

Mulder

You might be referrring to Swingers Palace in the Pittsburgh area. That club is straight, bi, and TV/TG/TS friendly. And there may be some other categories I don't know about. (The curious can find their website with minimum searching, I'm sure...)

Thrax

[tribbles]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Someone on here said that they changed their profile to "bi" as an experiment (a brilliant one, I think. Very interesting. Though I'd love to know how people reacted when they were made aware that it was just a test.) to see how many men listed as "straight" were actually "bi."

They said they were surprised...

Why do they present themselves as straight? Maybe if they were less ashamed of their sexuality - and more upfront - the culture would begin to shift. Maybe the problem isn't us straight guys. Maybe it is all of the closeted bi-guys.

Spoomonkey

Spoo,

Cuz we didn't try to 'out' any of them and we didn't stop playing with them, no one was angry. We are still pretty new to the LS and did it to learn more, not to be mean. Many told us that they were the tip of the ice berg and they personally knew of others who were listed straight and actually would play as bimales.

They list as straight for many reasons. There seems to be a fear or dislike of even being with a bi guy. Clubs ban them. Even if they don't play bi at the clubs (not just behind closed doors-anywhere in the club)...just having admitted to doing it or being curious can get a person banned. Small house parties ban them. They are avoided and shunned. On the scale of sexuality where it's 100% hetrosexual at one end or 100% homosexual at the other, studies show few are at the 100% ends. So say a guy is 80-20. 80% straight but under the right circumstances, will do oral on another guy. This guy totally prefers to play with females but that willingness to do something considered bi, can get him (and his partner) banned and shunned.

Someone on this board stated they loved to have their female partner done doggystyle and be under her licking her clit. But that puts the males tongue really close to another man's penis. And that action, can get both males banned from a club if it is seen and reported. After all, they both must be bi to be comfy doing that. :rollseyes

If they all came out, they would have to be willing to open their own clubs cuz there seems to be a big ick factor for some and fear for others of male bisexuality.

We took the route of "here are our boundaries, please respect them". Works for straight males, bifems and straight females as well.

[lovinher]

Someone on this board stated they loved to have their female partner done doggystyle and be under her licking her clit. But that puts the males tongue really close to another man's penis. And that action, can get both males banned from a club if it is seen and reported. After all, they both must be bi to be comfy doing that.

This something I would love to do for Lovinhim except that I'd want to be the guy behind her as long as he knew my parts were off limits. I just couldn't have a dick and set balls that close to my face. That doesn't make me bi in my book. It's all about her getting something she couldn't have otherwise. IMO, a guy would have to be at least bi-curious to be able to have a set of balls bouncing off his nose or forehead. I would not have any problem playing with a couple with a bi male as long as he knew and respected that there would be no male to male action. In fact if I knew that would happen I would play with a bi-male couple specifically for that purpose. I don't think I'd have a problem seeing that scenario in a club either.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by tribbles

On the scale of sexuality where it's 100% hetrosexual at one end or 100% homosexual at the other, studies show few are at the 100% ends. So say a guy is 80-20. 80% straight but under the right circumstances, will do oral on another guy. This guy totally prefers to play with females but that willingness to do something considered bi, can get him (and his partner) banned and shunned.

If they all came out, they would have to be willing to open their own clubs cuz there seems to be a big ick factor for some and fear for others of male bisexuality.

Thanks for the response. Like I said - I think the experiment was a brilliant one. But I am still wondering why - if there are so few straight men according to the study you refer to - bisexual men simply don't come out. If they all came out at once - then the straight males, like myself, would be in the minority. Perhaps we would then feel as uncomfortable at the club as some of the straight women have reported around here when faced with an overwhelming bisexual female population...

If a bisexual male is being "shunned" I would venture a guess that they are being shunned by straight people. It is not right that they are shunned, but why would they be shunned by other bisexual folks? And if this "shunning" is so effective - as it would appear to be based on the bisexual males fear of "coming out" - then it must mean that a majority of the men at clubs are more straight than your study will allow.

If the majority of men are truly some shade of bisexual, then why don't they simply "stand up" and fix the matter. The argument so far has been that club owners tend to base their rules on the majority - or how they can make the most money from their club. This is an economically sound way of doing business. If the majority of men were bisexual - and this majority expressed their desire for a more open club and refused to attend a club that did not allow them then the club owners would respond.

My impression is that while there are certainly probably more bisexual men in the lifestyle than will admit it, it is far from a majority. And if it is, in fact, a majority, then they lack the spine of my homosexual male friends who do, daily, face being shunned for their courage in "coming out".

If the majority of men are bisexual, then what are they waiting for? A mass "coming out" would change the environment of swinging in the way that they want. And, I for one would be glad of it. Perhaps if bisexual men were more comfortable and confident in themselves and their feelings, I could stop having to hear about how "rare" we straight guys are

Spoomonkey

[tribbles]

I did it to see how many were listed as str8 but admitted to being bi. Being new in the LS, we heard of male bisexuality but had no idea how many or how much to even be concerned about it. Reading threads on different sites, we understood some fear more STD's and others just expect the bimale to cross boundaries.

So, wondering our risk and trying to find our own acceptable limits, we did this. For us, in our area, if we want to 100% ever maybe being with a bimale, we need to give up swinging. Maybe it adds to the risk of STD's, maybe not. We decided to just accept that bimales are out there hiding.

Before we started the experiment, we didn't even know how most clubs banned them if they were out of the closet. We had met a few people who would not go to the club I posted about because they allowed bimales, gays and TS.

BTW, the studies that are published on sexuality, aren't mine. It's not my field. I read one post somewhere from a couple who both studied anthropology and they stated they learned it's the culture that determines how sexuality is expressed by both genders. So, if you want to, maybe find some studies on that?
Here are some links to the studies I know of:
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resou...k-hhscale.html
http://www.humnet.ucla.edu/calendar/0102/lgbs.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Reports
http://www.indiana.edu/~kinsey/resources/sexlinks.html
http://www.uic.edu/depts/quic/resour...t_studies.html
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A570098

I'd love to know enough to teach Human Sexuality classes one day. But today isn't that day. You might notice tho, the study by Kinsey happened in the 1940's. And gays were still very much in the closet for decades after.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by tribbles

BTW, the studies that are published on sexuality, aren't mine. It's not my field.

Nor is it mine. And I am not one to quibble with Kinsey study, flawed though it may be (either due to selective testing, as some assert, or cultural attitudes, as others point out). I believe that there are quite a few bisexual males out there - and if the studies are true, I may very well be a rare creature as a 100% straight male.

But my suggestion still stands...

We can discuss on a message board until the internet becomes extinct, but the only change has to come from the community of bisexual males. Until they grow a pair and come out*, then we'll never really know if the attitude within swing-dom is due to fear of being "snubbed" or a major case of cultural homophobia.

I accept the fact that not only are there bisexual men out there, in hiding, I also accept the fact that we have probably played with them. If so, they have all respected my boundaries and that is certainly all I would request. But then, I am pretty open-minded about the bisexual thing.

Spoomonkey

*I say this because there have been bisexual men on this board who have been very open about their preferences and it DID affect my biases.

[mackie44]

I find it interesting that women would go along with the bisexual double standard. It's not unusual to see women at swing clubs who totally agree with banning bi males but not bi females. It seems to me that women are exploiting the double standard and exploiting it as well. I'm increasingly of the view that women are helping to prop up the double standard because they see it as a privilege they want to hold on to. Anyone agree?

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by mackie44

I find it interesting that women would go along with the bisexual double standard. It's not unusual to see women at swing clubs who totally agree with banning bi males but not bi females. It seems to me that women are exploiting the double standard and exploiting it as well. I'm increasingly of the view that women are helping to prop up the double standard because they see it as a privilege they want to hold on to. Anyone agree?

It is only a double standard if bisexual sex between two women is the same as bisexual sex between two men. Otherwise, it is two separate things with their own standards.

Spoomonkey

[tribbles]

If acceptance of bisexuality is cultural, then women have been taught m/m is unacceptablem same as males have. While they have been taught f/f is sexy. So why would it be a surprise that many women have the same thoughts about male bisexuality as many men do?

[BorisNatasha]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

It is only a double standard if bisexual sex between two women is the same as bisexual sex between two men. Otherwise, it is two separate things with their own standards.

To me, this is like saying a black man forced to sit in the back of the bus is not the same as a white man forced to sit in the back of the bus. There's a difference there that anyone can see. Is it a double standard? What about a rule as to which restaurant you can eat at for fat people vs skinny people. They are different so it's not a double standard, right? Or is it only not a double standard when sex is involved?

After re-reading the thread will admit I can see the other side's argument. I am in the camp that would not want to be in a club where people were pissing on each other, as somebody pointed out. I can understand not wanting to see things that turn you off when your sole purpose of being at the establishment is to be turned on.

I am a straight guy too, believe it or not. I have argued the bisexual side of this argument here on this board, even though I don't have sex with men nor do I want to. I have watched my share of gay porn because my wife really enjoys watching it, and she watches the things I like so fair is fair. From these experiences I have learned that the sight of two guys having sex does not turn me off, and it really turns my wife ON, which turns me on. Maybe there is some Pavlovian conditioning going on there, I dunno. I guess I have made my arguments in these threads from that perspective, seeing what to me was a patently unfair situation for the men who wanted to participate in that activity alongside their wives and other female lovers, and for the women that enjoy watching same sex play no matter what sex is participating. Seeing these activities happen in a club would not harm my mini-Boris' vertical state, but if it would for the majority of guys in the club then I guess it's a good rule to have if the club owner wants to stay in business.

All that said, I still think it's a double standard, I think men are AFRAID of it because of our culture and their upbringing (how many bareback mountain jokes did you hear a couple years ago?), and I think that has a lot to do with why bisexual men don't come out and you don't see them enjoying the other half of their sexuality at your local swing club. I also believe it will gradually change when the next generation gets old enough to start showing up en-masse at the clubs.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by BorisNatasha

To me, this is like saying a black man forced to sit in the back of the bus is not the same as a white man forced to sit in the back of the bus. There's a difference there that anyone can see. Is it a double standard? What about a rule as to which restaurant you can eat at for fat people vs skinny people. They are different so it's not a double standard, right? Or is it only not a double standard when sex is involved?

Comparing the plight of the bisexual male as he fights for his right to enter the glory hole room at your local swing club to the struggle of an entire race to achieve some semblance of social equality is a bit of an insult to the Civil Rights movement, don't you think?

Without getting too pointed, I would certainly think that anyone can see a difference between a bisexual male being banned from a club (which I have maintained is a bad thing) and people being murdered for the color of their skin (which I would assert is a horrible thing).

However, it does help make the point that I have been making all along. It wasn't a bunch of white people in a forum who eventually talked segregation away, it was the bravery of people like Rosa Parks who stood up for their rights. In the same - albeit much less socially significant - way, bisexual males are responsible for changing the culture if they see a problem with it.

But, let me be clear, I don't see this as some great step along the path to equality. And I certainly would not champion a bisexual male refusing to leave the club before the pizza arrives in the same way that I would champion a woman refusing to give up her seat...

Spoomonkey

[mackie44]

Interesting comments all round.

[BorisNatasha]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Comparing the plight of the bisexual male as he fights for his right to enter the glory hole room at your local swing club to the struggle of an entire race to achieve some semblance of social equality is a bit of an insult to the Civil Rights movement, don't you think?

I made no such comparison. Nor did I mention murder anywhere (where did that come from?!?!) I was illustrating a point that you can't pick out something as simple as gender to define two separate standards, as you were trying to do. I picked examples based on skin color and body type to illustrate that a single differentiating characteristic between two people does not automatically put them into two different categories for the purposes of 'standards'. It was not my intent to make Martin Luther King, Jr. turn in his grave, and I think you know that.

Maybe a better example would have been the fact that in the past (and probably the present although I have not seen it in my field) women were paid less than men for the same work. That is a double standard where the only differentiating factor between the two is gender.

One final comment. I decided to look up the dictionary.com definition of 'double standard' and amazingly, it even has a sexual reference right there in the definition (although they have it backwards to this situation):

1. any code or set of principles containing different provisions for one group of people than for another, esp. an unwritten code of sexual behavior permitting men more freedom than women.