The swinging industry needs to be less homophobic to men

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

How is the act different? Mechanically it is the same. Someone is being penetrated in both cases. Be it vaginal or anal.

Except for the painfully obvious fact that when two men have sex, there isn't a vagina involved... And when two women have sex, there isn't a penis involved. Sure - those couples can toss in a sex toy or three, but it is still two men or two women.

Are you implying that the only difference between a man and a woman can be remedied with a rubber dong? Does a woman not have a different sexual energy from a man? Is the difference between the sexes solely physical?

When Mrs Spoo has sex with another woman, a rare thing, she wants that experience to be different than having sex with a man - otherwise, why bother?

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

Are you implying that women look better having sex with each other because they're feminine looking?

To me personally, yes. Absolutely. I have a preference for watching two women have sex and have no desire to watch two men have sex. But that is me - not everyone. Just as I prefer Diet Coke over regular Coke. It is a preference.

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

What of the women who are more masculine in build?

Again - is "build" the only difference between man and woman?

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

From your posts you've mentioned you have gay friends are all of them burly type men? Aren't some of them feminine in build? There are many men in the lifestyle who shave everything off like women and some of them are of slight build and look more androgynous than masculine.

My gay friends run the gamut from very masculine to convincing cross dresser. In fact, I have a few male straight friends who'd look pretty good in make up and dress. But again, there is more difference between a man and a woman than just their "build". I am fairly sure you understand, so I am not at all sure what point you are trying to make.

The question is, if one of my extremely feminine built gay friends wanted to have sex, I wouldn't. Do you want to know why? Because they are a man. According to your sexual economy though, it would be the mechanical equivalent of having sex with Mrs Spoo. And I tend to think that you are mistaken in this assertion.

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

I think Chiccup hit it on the nail with his "icky factor" and it's true for many two men making out is not sexually appealing. I personally don't find it appealing however I don't find two women making out appealing either. But I'm honest enough with myself to concede the act is the same . . . same sex is same sex no matter how you slice it. I will also concede there’s a double standard when it comes to bisexuality be it right or wrong. IMHO

For the record (once again) I personally have no problem with bisexual men. I wouldn't be (and haven't been) bothered by two men making out or dancing together. I tend to think that sexual energy is a good thing.

Would I want to watch them have sex? No. Preference.

But if two men went into a room together at my club, I wouldn't be the one to tell the ownership. Frankly, I'd be cool with it. But if someone else saw them in my club, they'd very likely be kicked out. I am scratching my head over how that makes me the villain in this thread, but I have broad shoulders

I disagree that there is a double standard simply because I do not see the acts as equal. But whether there is or not, the culture is what it is and more swingers are going to be uncomfortable with male bisexuality than female. We can argue about it, debate it over and over until we come to some virtual consensus - but it is what it is.

Someone on here said that they changed their profile to "bi" as an experiment (a brilliant one, I think. Very interesting. Though I'd love to know how people reacted when they were made aware that it was just a test.) to see how many men listed as "straight" were actually "bi."

They said they were surprised...

Why do they present themselves as straight? Maybe if they were less ashamed of their sexuality - and more upfront - the culture would begin to shift. Maybe the problem isn't us straight guys. Maybe it is all of the closeted bi-guys.

As I have learned from my gay friends - it takes a lot of courage to come out. But coming out is the first step to social acceptance. Just a thought...

Spoomonkey

[MulderNScully]

Originally Posted by tribbles

Club Taboo in Corona has a gay/bi/les/alternative nite on Thursdays

I think there is a club in Pennsylvania which is as open to all regardless of sexual preference. I can't remember it, but I did find it intriguing as to a club making such pains to accomdiate to all who are into the lifestyle ethos.

Very good topic! One I have always wondered about not because I'm gay or anything but seeing patterns and attitudes regarding male/male intimacy.

Mulder

[Sweet_Candy]

Spoon,

I never implied you were a villian so I'm not sure where that came from.

I've seen this as constructive debate nothing more.

We all bring our take on life to the table and each view is valid.

Sweet

[Thrax]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Just as I prefer Diet Coke over regular Coke.

Eeeeewwwwww!



Thrax

[Chicup]

The swingers board wouldn't be the swingers board without a pointless bi-male thread and the same people posting what we posted before on other threads (yes I'm one of the guilty ones).

Is it a double standard? YES!! Girls can kiss girls and guys can't kiss guys. Replace kiss with any sexual act, same thing.

Do I care? NO!! Sure is not fair that your bisexual husband would get kicked out of a club for rubbing another guys cock on the dance floor, while women can basically do anything to another woman in a swing club and get an audience if she likes.

There is a reason why one gets cheers and the other gets uncomfortable silence from most. Most straight men don't like to see MM sex, and if they do, guess what, they ain't straight. Most straight women don't either for some reason (yes there are exceptions). Most swinging females are bi to some degree or at least are not turned off by it. Those that are turned off by it are in the minority and often have a hard time in swinging. Most swinging males are straight, maybe its less then let on because of the double standard, but its not like 80% of the men are bi and being repressed by a 20% minority.
Now not everyone is into everything but it goes deeper.

Its not like its neutral to a lot of us, and let me use a non-sexual example. Neither my wife or I smoke, never have, never will. Its pretty nasty to us. The clubs we have been to have all had smoking and non smoking areas. If the clubs didn't have non-smoking areas and was very smoke filled we would not return to that club. I don't think anyone would fault us for that choice and being 'close minded'.

Now lets take 2 guys going at it in public in a club. This isn't like passing up a vegetable you don't like at a buffet. They are there in the open and its hard not to see whats going on without 'averting your eyes'. To me and my wife, and many others we know in swinging, this is a turn off. We are no longer feeling free and sexy but grossed out. Its not fair, its a double standard, blah blah, but thats just how our brains are wired sexually.

I don't CARE if two guys have sex, I would still like them as people if they were friends, and yes even I have gay friends, BUT I don't want to see it when I'm in the mood to get Mr. Happy some play time.

If a club had MM sex going on in the open, we would not return to that club because the club would no longer be serving the purpose for which we would want to attend. This of course makes us, to some, closed minded, homophobic, blah blah blah, and thats quite frankly assinine.

Maybe in the future clubs will have 'smoking rooms' where bisexual males and their partners can play together and that would be fine with me.(it would also never work for another reason, but I don't have time to get into that one.)

[prettylady]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

I am scratching my head over how that makes me the villain in this thread, but I have broad shoulders

Spoomonkey

Does your villain persona come with a costume?

Your friend,
Prettylady

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

I never implied you were a villian so I'm not sure where that came from.

I am basing this on a separate communication about this thread, but not in this thread. I apologize for the confusion

The person who sent it did so privately (which I highly respect) and I suppose I was feeling a bit persecuted. That is where that came from. I am sorry if I swept you into that frustration.

Spoomonkey

PS - Prettylady... Why yes. I do, in fact, have a costume

[good times]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

PS - Prettylady... Why yes. I do, in fact, have a costume

Yea, but do you look hot in a dress and heels?

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

How is the act different? Mechanically it is the same. Someone is being penetrated in both cases. Be it vaginal or anal.

This is a silly thing to say. That means they're about as much the same as taking a shower and jumping in a pool. Someone gets wet in both cases, right? But they are not the same, and they don't provoke the same reactions.

Just because man-on-man and woman-on-woman are both same-sex activities does not make them equivalent in the eyes of an audience! And most likely not to the participants either. I've had sex with a few women, and I feel sure the experience is nothing like a man having sex with another man, no matter what equipment is used or what orafices are involved.

Sorry to be harsh, but... I can't be as diplomatic as Spoomonkey.

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

Are you implying that women look better having sex with each other because they're feminine looking? What of the women who are more masculine in build? From your posts you've mentioned you have gay friends are all of them burly type men? Aren't some of them feminine in build? There are many men in the lifestyle who shave everything off like women and some of them are of slight build and look more androgynous than masculine.

Again, dude... they're still men. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Vive la difference!

Yes, peoples' double standards about same sex activity are not "fair". The two things elicit different reactions, rightly or wrongly.

[Sweet_Candy]

Originally Posted by The Fuse

This is a silly thing to say. That means they're about as much the same as taking a shower and jumping in a pool. Someone gets wet in both cases, right? But they are not the same, and they don't provoke the same reactions.

Just because man-on-man and woman-on-woman are both same-sex activities does not make them equivalent in the eyes of an audience! And most likely not to the participants either. I've had sex with a few women, and I feel sure the experience is nothing like a man having sex with another man, no matter what equipment is used or what orafices are involved.

Sorry to be harsh, but... I can't be as diplomatic as Spoomonkey.


Again, dude... they're still men. This is a good thing, not a bad thing. Vive la difference!

Yes, peoples' double standards about same sex activity are not "fair". The two things elicit different reactions, rightly or wrongly.

Pardon my ignorance but me being a mechanical engineer and applying engineering priciples while observing the act they look the same to me. Be it man on man or woman with strap-on on woman. Guess I wasted alot of money on that M.E. degree? head bang

[The Fuse]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

Pardon my ignorance but me being a mechanical engineer and applying engineering priciples while observing the act they look the same to me. Be it man on man or woman with strap-on on woman. Guess I wasted alot of money on that M.E. degree? head bang

Coincidentally, I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering as well... and a Master's Degree in it.

Honey, this is sex we're talking about. I suppose everyone approaches it differently, but I prefer to leave "engineering principles" in the office and far away from my sex life. There are emotions, excitement, evocative sights...not engineering, though there might be a few mechanical challenges here and there .

What I'm trying to get at is that we are not just talking about pistons and cylinders...we're talking about the people who are attached. Lots of factors influence how people feel witnessing sex acts, and most of those factors are about the whole participants rather than their slippery parts.

[mackie44]

The male-male interaction doesn't have to be penetration-focused. I've known guys who simply want to touch each other's genitals or give each other a body rub. The scary thing is that many of the swing clubs expressly forbid even these forms of male-male interaction.

As for the people who say they don't like it, fair enough. I'm not saying you have to like anything nor am I saying that you have to participate in anything you don't like. But if others want to see it or do it, they should not be prevented by archaic and inconsistent rules.

[DBL D]

I've been reading all of the posts and the fact that seems to strike me is the fact that when we take photos. I'll take a bunch of her and maybe some of us together, and then Fem D wants to take some of me. Since I'm such a pro, why should that make me feel weird? I mean, I'm the pro...I know what looks good or hot. But when she looks at the shots she's taken of me, she says they look great. I seem to find problems with them.

So...men just look "different" with each other...Sorta like when you first saw your first FF and thought that was odd. You got used to that. Why is it so hard for us to accept that Males have fantasies too? God-damn-right that it is different. Why do it if it were the same? Just as a woman making it with another woman should be "different".

Anyways...basically, I don't look like what I FEEL like. In fact I had to sorta of convince Fem D that she did look just fine...by showing her other shots you'd find in say Penthouse Forums. Guys just don't look that good in photos....especially those taken by non pros.

So, the idea that MM turns most off is just a perception, like I mentioned before as well. It's just not something we're used to seeing and additionally, not something we're necessarily looking to see.

The point is that there still are many a straight couple who, when they attend clubs or dances, see FF and it isn't a shock to their systems. MM at this point still is.

The point has also been made that every club isn't "run" the way we think it should be run.

One of the things that has bothered me about the no-smoking fever that has seemingly taken over our nation is the fact that business owners have been left out of how they can run their own businesses. It's dictated to them.

I would hate to see clubs operated in this way, as I'm sure Vegas Lee or anyone else who has ventured into this area would feel.

You guys must just pass over my responses, for some reason. I'll just sit back and Learn from all of you...

Male D

[VegasLee]

mackie44,

It appears to me that no matter what is said less then all clubs will change tonight to suit your desires nothing is going to be acceptable.

My question to you is, since there are many clubs out there that do not ban m/m action, why don't you just go to them? Why do you want all other clubs to change to meet what you feel they should be?

I am not attacking, I am asking.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by The Fuse

What I'm trying to get at is that we are not just talking about pistons and cylinders...we're talking about the people who are attached. Lots of factors influence how people feel witnessing sex acts, and most of those factors are about the whole participants rather than their slippery parts.

I am neither an engineer nor do I have a degree in anything remotely related to physics... But I have to say - errr - yes... That is what I meant

Spoomonkey