The swinging industry needs to be less homophobic to men

[good times]

Well, their is the way it ought to be, and then their is the way it is.

The problem arises when your idea of the way it ought to be is different then the majorities idea of the way it ought to be.

More importantly, from a club owners standpoint, he doesn't give two hoots about what is right or wrong or discriminatory, what he cares about, if he is to be successful, is the bottom line. The way it is today is that the majority of that club owners potential customers find M/M activity icky, repulsive, or nasty. So in the interest of enhancing his bottom line he has a rule against it or one that keeps it behind closed doors. It may not seem fair to you, but it is the way it is.

The fact is, real life is not fair, non-discriminatory, and open minded, people just aren't wired that way. And while one likes to think they are open minded and accepting of everyones lifestyle, in reality it is like Chicup said, everyone draws the line somewhere, and that includes everyone here.

For the record, I have no problem with M/M play, as long as it doesn't involve me.

[VegasLee]

I personally live by a couple very simple ideas in my life that keeps my life simple and easy.

1. If I don't like the way a person runs their business or party, I don't go there.

2. If I am not the one that owns the business or running the party I don't have the right to tell the person that does own it or is running it how to run their business or party.

Many years ago we got tired of the "after parties" at the convention every year. There where many suites holding parties every night but all where the same. Way to many people stuffed in a suite fully clothed getting drunk and nothing else was going on. Instead of bitching about it the next year and for the last seven years we held our own suite parties. We let in a comfortable amount of people, had a free open bar but we had one rule, NO CLOTHES ALLOWED in the suite. That changed the whole thing. No one was required to have sex but everyone did because of the way it was set up and different then all the rest of the parties. Yes, some people complained, they did not want to take their clothes off. They wanted to stand in the middle of 100 naked people and drink my free drinks. I just advised them there was many other suites that fit their needs perfectly and please go to those or follow our rules. We kept it simple.

All businesses/parties can not be everything to everyone. You either have to find the ones that work for you or hold your own. That is not just in this lifestyle but life in general. It's easy to complain about things not being the way you want them and it takes a bit more effort to find the things that work for you. If you want life to work for you then you have to make the effort.

[lovinher]

VegasLee just about summed it up and it could be said any better than that.

[Swingercast]

Originally Posted by mackie44

I don't mind rules being present in a swing club. In fact, the whole of society needs rules. But when the rules in a swing club are designed to promote the bisexual double standard, the rule becomes inconsistent. At that point, it also becomes discriminatory.

For those of you reading this that might not be aware of this:

One contributing reason as to why many organizations are "couples only" is that there have been lawsuits that claimed discrimination based on sex. In some cases that I have heard about, single females were allowed in to clubs but single males were not. So, some people have sued clubs based on sexual discrimination, so I'm sure some organizations are fearful to let singles in regardless of sexual preference.

In regards to swing clubs, I completely agree with many of you that have posted. The owners should be allowed to run their private clubs in a way that is profitable and I would hope that would mean classy but from my experience that is not always the case. To each his own. What I might consider a great club might seem to others like a waste of time.

Allie's father is gay and he goes on a lot of fun and exciting trips with other like minded people. He could never take us on one of these trips because the trips are part of an organization that excludes straight people. So, when I hear bi-men lamenting the fact that a lot of swinger clubs do not allow them entrance, I think to myself...Well, why not start your own club that caters to that group? If it is in such high demand, what is holding you back?

Mackie44, please do not take offense, you probably will anyway but if you heard me say this over a beer it might sound less offensive: There is no such thing as a "bisexual double standard". Comparing male bisexuality to female bisexuality is like comparing apples to oranges. The two are as different as men and women. Lumping them together won't help your cause, it only makes you sound disrespectful.

John

[tribbles]

There is no such thing as a "bisexual double standard". Comparing male bisexuality to female bisexuality is like comparing apples to oranges. The two are as different as men and women. Lumping them together won't help your cause, it only makes you sound disrespectful.

John,

I've seen them lumped together on other message boards. They ARE in many people minds, two sides of the same coin.

Course, I've also seen male bisexuality compared to beastiality. So go figure.

[Sweet_Candy]

There is no such thing as a "bisexual double standard". Comparing male bisexuality to female bisexuality is like comparing apples to oranges. The two are as different as men and women. Lumping them together won't help your cause, it only makes you sound disrespectful.

Originally Posted by tribbles

John,

I've seen them lumped together on other message boards. They ARE in many people minds, two sides of the same coin.

Course, I've also seen male bisexuality compared to beastiality. So go figure.

I would agree with Tribble's view the act of bisexuality is the same act for both sexes. The general definition is defined as individuals having sex with the same sex as well as sex with the opposite sex. How this is different between the sexes eludes me.

I would also agree there is a double standard in the Lifestyle concerning bisexuality.

[lovinher]

VegasLee just about summed it up and it could be said any better than that.

That should have been "couldn't" sorry Lee.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

How this is different between the sexes eludes me.

Since picture posting is not working right now, imagine two pairs of stick figures. One set has penises, one set does not...



Spoomonkey

[Sweet_Candy]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

Since picture posting is not working right now, imagine two pairs of stick figures. One set has penises, one set does not...



Spoomonkey

Guess you've never witness strap-on action then?

Touching, kissing, licking, eating, inserting are actions I've seen both sexes do. They look the same to me.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

Guess you've never witness strap-on action then?

You're serious...

I mean - you really see "strap on sex" between women as exactly the same as sex between men?

Originally Posted by Sweet_Candy

Touching, kissing, licking, eating, inserting are actions I've seen both sexes do. They look the same to me.

I remember a class in middle school where they showed us pictures of a man and a woman naked. Even at that tender young age, I was able to see the difference.

Spoomonkey

[Sweet_Candy]

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

You're serious...

I mean - you really see "strap on sex" between women as exactly the same as sex between men?

How is the act different? Mechanically it is the same. Someone is being penetrated in both cases. Be it vaginal or anal.

Originally Posted by Spoomonkey

I remember a class in middle school where they showed us pictures of a man and a woman naked. Even at that tender young age, I was able to see the difference.

Are you implying that women look better having sex with each other because they're feminine looking? What of the women who are more masculine in build? From your posts you've mentioned you have gay friends are all of them burly type men? Aren't some of them feminine in build? There are many men in the lifestyle who shave everything off like women and some of them are of slight build and look more androgynous than masculine.

I think Chiccup hit it on the nail with his "icky factor" and it's true for many two men making out is not sexually appealing. I personally don't find it appealing however I don't find two women making out appealing either. But I'm honest enough with myself to concede the act is the same . . . same sex is same sex no matter how you slice it. I will also concede there’s a double standard when it comes to bisexuality be it right or wrong. IMHO

[lovinher]

Are you implying that women look better having sex with each other because they're feminine looking?

Well, Duh! That would be the general consensus yes.

How is the act different? Mechanically it is the same. Someone is being penetrated in both cases. Be it vaginal or anal.

Because one is a vagina and one is an.....asshole.

What of the women who are more masculine in build? From your posts you've mentioned you have gay friends are all of them burly type men? Aren't some of them feminine in build? There are many men in the lifestyle who shave everything off like women and some of them are of slight build and look more androgynous than masculine.

They still have a penis. I don't get it.

I think Chiccup hit it on the nail with his "icky factor" and it's true for many two men making out is not sexually appealing. I personally don't find it appealing however I don't find two women making out appealing either.

Even still, many women and the majority of men do find it appealing.

But I'm honest enough with myself to concede the act is the same . . . same sex is same sex no matter how you slice it.

The act is the same, the perception for many, probably even most, is not.

I will also concede there’s a double standard when it comes to bisexuality be it right or wrong. IMHO

Yes there is. It may be wrong but it is what it is.

[BorisNatasha]

It's nice to see some real discussion going here, but honestly why do people always bring out "if you don't like it, start your own club".

I don't like the high price of gas, but I'm not going to build my own refinery.

I don't like the way the country is being run, but I'm not going to try to become President to change that.

I'm still allowed to explain my opinion on why things like this should be different, without having to be the one to solve the issue.

[VegasLee]

There is millions of men in this world that think having sex with a women is Icky... there is millions of women that think the same about having sex with men.

Swingers or straight people don't have the lock on thinking things are icky.

lovinher hit on something. It is all in the "perception" for everyone.

No one has to start a club to find what they want. There is a club and many parties that fit the needs of just about everyone. You just have to look around until you find the one that works for you. At the same time no one should expect a club to change to suit their needs either.

Hashing this out on a message board is pretty easy since most people here don't know who you are. Standing at a public meeting and talking about rights for all and having things thrown at you is a bit more exciting though. Some look at this as an argument when it is nothing more then everyone giving input about what works for them. We are all different and that is what makes this a great world and Lifestyle.

[WesternSwing]

In my opinion, is male and female bisexual activity the same? Yes, in reality it is still bisexual play, regardless of the equipment involved.

Is it perceived as different by the masses? Yes.

Is this right? In my opinion, no.

In my opinion is there a double standard? Yes, but it's social conditioning and nothing else. People have been taught over generations that MM is icky and FF is not. Even in polygamy, MFFFF cool, FMMM not. It hasn't always been this way and it didn't change overnight, in fact this "social norm" has only been present in the last 1% of homo sapien's existence. Most sexologists and anthropologists believe that humans and most past societies were bisexual in nature, and at the time this was the "social norm" because in their learned opinion this is the way humans are hardwired. How with think to day about bisexuality is conditioned.

You see this double standard applied to everything sexual in nature. Guys think (and many women too) that two women together are cool, two men are not. You read non-swinger forums or questions about threesomes and it's always the same (especially to men), FMF is good, MFM is bad. I think many men are insecure about being naked in a room with other men or other men having sex with a woman they are having sex with (whether present or past). Why? I think because they feel they are being "measured-up" physically or in sexual prowess by the other woman or man. He's afraid he may not be as large as the other guy, or maybe the woman will prefer the other man to him, etc.

I think many swingers have seen it, the male who has performance issues when swinging, whether it be a married male in the same room with his wife and the other man, or a single guy joining a couple for a threesome. Many times you get the same male in a separate room with a woman along and all systems are "go". Simply being naked around another man makes them uncomfortable.

Why are they uncomfortable? Simply social conditioning over time. Throughout history it wasn't always like this, but it is now. Is it going to change? Maybe, but it took thousands of years to get the way it is now, and it will take several generations down the road to change it back. Plus, it's allot easier to condition someone than to un-condition them. It's like training a dog (which is pure conditioning), it's easier to prevent a certain conditioning than it is to change a set-in conditioning. Once it's there it is hard to undo.

Do I hope it will change? Yes, very much so. Everyone should have the right to be who they are. Do they? In reality, no. The opinionated majority will always trump the ideal of the individual and it takes a very brave individual to go against the grain. It sucks, but it is the truth. To affect even minor change takes time, and you change the thinking of the young and the old ideals eventually die-out. For instance, women have had the right to vote in the U.S. for over 70 years now, but are they still considered "equal" in the eyes of men? Unfortunately no. There is still a huge gender gap in many things in our society, and most of the are not for the better. Is this changing? Yes, slowly but surely each generation being born is is thinking a little different. In the meantime, those that do go against the grain will in time be "pioneers", but at the time they are considered heretics.

Mr. WS