The "bi" subject

[Rockme]

I have noticed a few things while reading MANY different posts on the subject of being “bi”. We seem to have a lot of people who are label happy. We have this desire to slap a label on people and situations. I have read questions like “I kissed another woman 10 years ago, does this make me bi?” or “during play with my woman another man’s penis hit my leg, does this mean I am now bi?” We want to attach a label to what happened out of fear. What is that fear we hold so deep down inside? Do we all have a fear of being “bi” and liking it?! Is it the fear that society has taught us that being “bi”, especially two males, is wrong?

I laugh when I read those males who almost over compensate in their posts on this subject. The ones who say “I’m not gay or bi and I would never, never, never, never, never, never touch another guy! My wife has touched another woman, but again, I would never ever, not in a million years, not unless you paid me a million dollars, touch another man.” These same guys keep showing up on all the “bi” question posts. They feel it important to set the record straight before giving us their two cents. Almost like they believe someone will log on and say “HEY, I did not know he was gay or bi!!!” I may show up on some thread about “water sport”, but that does not mean I am into it. By reading other posts this is how we learn about thing.

I don’t know about you but I can’t spend the rest of my life so worried about labels. When my wife and I play we go out to have fun. We connect with the other couple or person and have fun. We don’t sit around saying “tonight will be the “bi” night.” We go with the mood and what the other person or persons want. My wife is not “bi” at all. She makes this clear to those we play with. She does not want another woman making a move on her. But if another woman’s boob hits her arm during play she does not freak out and say “does this make me “bi” now?” When do we get to the world where we look at each other as humans and not male/female? When do we get to the point that you can touch the same sex and not have to label it? 99% of my sexual life has been with women only. I have had oral sex with a few men, period. If this makes me gay, bi or what ever other label you see fit, then so be it! I think I am someone who is open to the human touch.

[Karmickiss]

I am one of those women that in a world of labels...(I've never been fond of any labels) who will say I am a bi-female...for lack of a better way to say it,and in doing so..I feel comfortable enough...b/c I can honestly say that I simply love beauty in all it's forms.

However...sometimes,(and more times than I ever would have imagined,actually) I am surprised at the sudden change it might have on someone's perception of me as a person. Alot of this,I do see as a reaction to the power of, and misunderstandings that may result from a label. One of the definitions of "label",according to the little paperback Oxford Dictionary I have in my modest little desk...is: "..to describe or classify." The simplest definition for "bi-sexual", in said dictionary, is:"sexually attracted by members of both sexes."...hmmmm...I like threads that make me think

In my own humble experience, there might be alot of reasons for it, the reason I think I was so surprised by various reactions, I mean. One thing I can clearly feel is that slight fear(or not so slight, depending) of the unknown, coupled with the same feeling that I can best describe as a bit of "homophobia". Then others are simply interested in what that means for me as a person...seeing sexuality on more of a spectrum, gay/straight..and where do you fall in between...etc... I'm sure there are a plethera of reasons...I can only speak for myself.

For me, the thing that I find disheartening at times would be the preconcieved beliefs from some, that I naturally fall into a narrow definition of what bi-sexuality means to them. Some of those beliefs are more negative feeling for me,...like this means I couldn't be monogamous...that I'm a freak of nature that HAS to have both..or that I am in denial about really being gay...that my "in between" attitude is a cop out...etc. etc.. Although in some cases,I've made a friend b/c of the discusssion it sparks; if the person is open enough to ask me about it...and can believe/understand that everyone's reality or fit in life is truly individual, and they state their feelings/thoughts about it not as "fact" for everyone. It's nice if these things are asked find out more about me, and the communication also can tell me alot about others,too..and that's a good thing. It's too bad, though, that often it dosen't work like that...but to that I say,to each their own beliefs,and try to stick with more like-minded people for my own sanity......

Speaking just for me...I think that if there are no other glaring factors involved...that if one is truly bi-sexual...you know it, without a question....we can have a wide variety of experiences as human beings...(but they don't necessarily define us, but are the way we find out how to define ourselves)but there's nothing confusing about it for me anymore. The only hesitiation I ever had was when I was very young, and I was affected much more personally by labels,and I was in a mild case of denial about how I felt about other women, but it wasn't earth-shatteringly hard to get over, once I grew into a sexual being. As I matured in this way,I understood myself enough to be able to say,yes,I guess I do fit under the label of bi-sexual,and this came along naturally as a part of my growth.

I really like the last statement in your post...about human touch...I too, feel that way.I feel lucky, even..that all it really means to me, in real simple terms(about being bi-sexual) is that it's all about the individual...with sex and attraction..and I never know which sex it will appear to me as...but when the chemistry and timing and all that jazz is right...my passion is either the 'king' or 'queen' of my universe....

[Dooode]

Accidental or incidental contact doesn't make anyone bi and I think that bisexuality begins with the curiosity and desirablity of contact, regardless of how innocent or slight that contact might appear. It's not just contact. It's the motive behind the contact.

Labels can go overboard, and I've seen a few: bicurious, bi-tolerant, bi-top, cocksucker, just-boob-play, bi-anything-but-no-kissing!, she-can-kiss-my-pussy-but-I-won't-reciprocate ... and I think that's just a way for people to identify their boundaries. I label myself a "full-bisexual" to say that I am capable of pleasing both of a partner equally in all respects.

I'm pretty much like you where I'm more go-with-the-flow kinda guy; sometimes the man is more attractive to me, sometimes the woman. If I'm lucky, they both make me hot equally (then let the good times roll!!).

I know of what you mean by "overcompensate". I knew a guy once who used to beat up "fags". Turned out that it came out in group therapy that he got a blowjob when he was a kid and he was hiding it ever since by hating and beating up homosexuals (that must've been one lousy blowjob!).

So I take overcompensation with a grain of salt.

[SueRic]

Sexual preference categories are important because they permit easy identification and tracking of you by the NSA and Dept. of Homeland Security

Seriously, as I mentioned on a different thread, I find sexual preference descriptors as useless as they are persistent in their use. Men especially rely on them and seem fixated on establishing a brightline between straight, and bi or gay. Unfortunately, in a society that emphasizes sexual identity, tribalism, brand awareness, and wordplay, we won't soon be moving away from straight, bi, gay labels anytime soon.

R

[Rockme]

I just wanted to say thank you to each of you. I enjoyed your opinions and share in most everything you are saying!!

Maybe the label thing helps some to feel safe. They feel as if they must bash the “bi” thing because of fear. They feel that even talking with a “bi” somehow threatens their being a real man! Some will say “just not for me.” I think that is cool in every way. Some will say “I won’t play with a bi couple or couple that has a bi male.” They fear what could happen. Is that fear a fear of what I may do as a bi male to you or a fear of what may come out in you? I will tell you this. My wife and I have played with plenty of couples who are not “bi” or even “bi courisiouse.” I have had a LOT OF FUN with others without even given a second thought to the male. If you let that label hold you back out of fear, then you WILL miss a lot of great people. I am not some sick guy who can’t hold back my urges. Also, I don’t mean to hurt some people and their feelings, but some guys just don’t do it for me! Just like some women don’t do it for me. Don’t think that you are so hot that one look at you will make me want to have sex with you! If you put your rules in place with the other couple, there should be no problem. If there ever was, then end it then and there. I have yet to be in a swing setting with a non-bi couple and think I can’t stand it anymore I have to have his cock! Maybe we ALL need to get over our selves a little bit.

[good times]

I, for one, like labels, as a person with a busy life, labels help me prioritize whom we interact with. As many already know here, my wife and I are both straight. If we are contacted by somebody from our add profile and their profile emphasizes their desire for Bi activity, we know that we are not compatible and can move on to better prospects. Likewise, our add clearly labels us as straight, that way people looking for Bi-play can conveniently avoid us. It all works pretty good, and without the labels we would all be wasting a lot of time. Labels, whether you like them or not, are a necessary part of life and will probably be with us forever. Let’s face it, even you state that you want to be labeled as "human".

As far as the people emphatically claiming to be 100% straight goes, that is easily explained if you read the posts that precede it. It always starts when someone makes the ridiculous claim that "everybody is a little bit Bi" or something similar. Once someone makes a statement like that, then it becomes mandatory for someone else, like me, to point out that no, some of us are totally straight.

While it is a nice sentiment to say that we should all be looked at as just human with no other labels, it is not very practical in real life. We are all different, and labels are just one tool that helps us differentiate ourselves from each other.

[good times]

Originally Posted by Rockme

I just wanted to say thank you to each of you. I enjoyed your opinions and share in most everything you are saying!!

Maybe the label thing helps some to feel safe. They feel as if they must bash the “bi” thing because of fear. They feel that even talking with a “bi” somehow threatens their being a real man! Some will say “just not for me.” I think that is cool in every way. Some will say “I won’t play with a bi couple or couple that has a bi male.” They fear what could happen. Is that fear a fear of what I may do as a bi male to you or a fear of what may come out in you? I will tell you this. My wife and I have played with plenty of couples who are not “bi” or even “bi courisiouse.” I have had a LOT OF FUN with others without even given a second thought to the male. If you let that label hold you back out of fear, then you WILL miss a lot of great people. I am not some sick guy who can’t hold back my urges. Also, I don’t mean to hurt some people and their feelings, but some guys just don’t do it for me! Just like some women don’t do it for me. Don’t think that you are so hot that one look at you will make me want to have sex with you! If you put your rules in place with the other couple, there should be no problem. If there ever was, then end it then and there. I have yet to be in a swing setting with a non-bi couple and think I can’t stand it anymore I have to have his cock! Maybe we ALL need to get over our selves a little bit.

I was evidently posting my above comments at the same time you were posting this. Your new post begs the question though, is this really a problem? I have met a few people that wouldn't play with bi-males, and maybe it is out of the fear you state, I have no idea. However, in our experience this is extremely rare. Most people we know are like us, we are more than happy to play with you as long as you respect our desire not to engage in Bi activities. Furthermore, I have yet to meet anyone in the lifestyle that bashes somebody for being Bi.

[Rockme]

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. I give your “opinion” just as much weight as anyone else. I would never want you to do anything that you don’t want to do. I have never said nor do I believe that everyone is a little “bi.” Yes, you are on the money about labels in society and in your life. So I will live my life trying to shed labels and their importance to me. You can live your life adding as many labels to me and everyone else. Labels do hold an important part in life in some way. It is only when we get so crazy about labels that we miss out on a lot of thing. A lot of good people and things fall outside of standard labels. If we are all so quick to see in black and white, labels and non-labels, then we will reap what we have sown. This may be how you choose to live your life. Far be it for I or anyone else to try and change your opinion. But then again that is the point. No one in this post is trying to convert or change anyone to his or her way of thinking. Again, thank you for taking the time to write.

[2jersey]

Originally Posted by Rockme

Thank you for your thoughts on the subject. I give your “opinion” just as much weight as anyone else. I would never want you to do anything that you don’t want to do. I have never said nor do I believe that everyone is a little “bi.” Yes, you are on the money about labels in society and in your life. So I will live my life trying to shed labels and their importance to me. You can live your life adding as many labels to me and everyone else. Labels do hold an important part in life in some way. It is only when we get so crazy about labels that we miss out on a lot of thing. A lot of good people and things fall outside of standard labels. If we are all so quick to see in black and white, labels and non-labels, then we will reap what we have sown. This may be how you choose to live your life. Far be it for I or anyone else to try and change your opinion. But then again that is the point. No one in this post is trying to convert or change anyone to his or her way of thinking. Again, thank you for taking the time to write.

If there is an either/or (black and white) framework for sexual identity it stems from efforts to assign everyone a label of homosexual or heterosexual. It seems bizarre to argue that the bisexual label is polarizing - it is a middle ground reality for many people.

Heterosexuals and gays/lesbians insist on their right to self identify with the hetroesexual or gay/lesbian label. Why deny biseuxuals the same right?

If you're bisexual but don't want to use a label, then describe your sexual orientation without using the term "bisexual". Perhaps you might say: "I am a man and I think I would lke to be sexual with a man" or " I enjoy sexual relations with people of more than one sex" or "I have the potential of being sexually attracted to members of my sex" or whatever... You will be saying the same thing as the rest of us, but you wil be using more words.

I have erotic feelings for, fantasies of, and experiences with both men and women. For simplicity, I just say I am female and I am bisexual.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Rockme

When do we get to the world where we look at each other as humans and not male/female?

When the world is full of androgenous, hermaphroditic blobs that are clearly indistinguishable from each other...

Originally Posted by Rockme

When do we get to the point that you can touch the same sex and not have to label it?

About the same time that having sexual contact with a man is the exact same thing as having sexual contact with a woman. Until then, it is what it is...

Hello - I am a so-called overcompensator. I am straight and - for the record - would "never, never, never, never, never, never touch another guy." I do not think there is anything more wrong with stating that fact than there is making the statements that you have made. It is my sincere opinion and my most honest self-evaluation.

Come on...

Do we really need another thread on this?

I know, I know - all questions/thoughts/ideas are welcome - and I support your right to post it, but these debates always start with some very ridiculous thoughts.

1. "Bisexual" is not a label that straight guys made up. It was actually borrowed from psychology. It is not a "label" as much as it is a simple descriptor.

2. Sexual Utopia - or open-minded-ness - is not defined by men being willing ot have sex with other men. That may be YOUR definition of Utopia, but it is not mine. I am not a low brow, an idiot or a homophobe. I am simply unapologetically straight.

From a purely honest perspective - any person who desires sex with someone of their own gender is bisexual. The definition is: "a person sexually responsive to both sexes." So - we are not talking about labels here at all - but definitions.

Do you fit the definition?

If so... So what? Big deal... Party on... Be you... Enjoy yourself the way you are...

What I find highly insulting is the idea that it is somehow more enlightened to be bisexual. Frankly, I think it would be incredibly "unevolved" to be that which I am not - to be dishonest with myself.

Why do bisexual men feel a need to debate this point over and over? What are THEY compensating for? Do they need all men to admit some sort of bi-ness to feel comfortable with who they are? Why are they so afraid of being unique?

Spoomonkey

[Rockme]

You ask if we need another thread on being bi? The real question is do we need another long post from Spoomonkey claiming how “he is straight” to the world. I find it very interesting that about 98% of the “bi” threads I have read have a response from you! In fact when I wrote the thing I kept saying to myself how many hours before Spoomonkey jumps in on this one?! I knew you would!! I would think after saying the same thing over and over again to each “bi” thread you come across it would get old. Do you sit around waiting for another “bi” thread so you can announce to the world “I’m straight!” What are you so afraid of? You take a post that is 100% my opinion, which by the way I can feel anyway I want, and turn it into your form for word play. You can break down my post line by line all you want. You can stroke your ego and chaise people away. I stand by my original post. Not you nor anyone else will scare me away! You are not “bi”, GREAT! Stop hanging out on “bi” threads!! Or is this purely an ego trip for you? Are you into water sport, foot fetish, hair pulling and such? Why you ask? There have been threads done about those subjects as well. Why no wise words from Spoomonkey on those subjects? Why don’t I read “I ain’t no foot smeller” being posted by you? I would think you would want to make it clear on EVERY subject you don’t do or don’t agree with?!

This board is open for a wide variety of opinions and discussion. It is not warranted or proper to attack another person. You don’t like what I am saying, then just don’t respond to the thread. It is counterproductive to everyone to have to sensor they’re thought out of fear of attack. Most swingers live with that fear from the general public. We look to this as one of those places we can call home. All I can say is may your life and your future posts come under as much scrutiny. Maybe then you will understand?

[BradAndJanet]

Originally Posted by 2jersey

... If you're bisexual but don't want to use a label, then describe your sexual orientation without using the term "bisexual". ...

I use the term 'pervert' myself.

I just like sex and the male body can be just as sexy as the female body. Like somebody said, it's not like every guy (or gal) is attractive to me, but if it feels right, it feels right, you know? Call me bi if you want, I just know what I like.

-B

[Chicup]

Originally Posted by Rockme

You ask if we need another thread on being bi? The real question is do we need another long post from Spoomonkey claiming how “he is straight” to the world. I find it very interesting that about 98% of the “bi” threads I have read have a response from you! In fact when I wrote the thing I kept saying to myself how many hours before Spoomonkey jumps in on this one?! I knew you would!!

Liar you were expecting me.

And my my, you missed the entire point of Spoo’s post.

[Spoomonkey]

Originally Posted by Rockme

You can break down my post line by line all you want.

Cool

I'll give it a go...

Originally Posted by Rockme

You ask if we need another thread on being bi?

Yes - I did...

Originally Posted by Rockme

The real question is do we need another long post from Spoomonkey claiming how “he is straight” to the world.

No the "real" question is, why would you feel the need ot bait those of us who are straight, specifically and expectantly wondering how long it would take for your post to illicit a response from me?

You did not post this thread as a question about bisexuality - you asked pointedly why the straight guys respond to these threads. Did you not want us to tell you why we do? Perhaps you started your thread for all the wrong reasons...

As long as the insinuation is that straight men are somehow less enlightened, less tolerant, less honest or less self-actualized than Bi-men, then I feel I have a right and a responsibility to challenge that.

So - you posted - I challenged. And I stand by my response, just as proudly as you stand by your first post. However, I would like to point out that my post does not question anyone's orientation as yours does

Originally Posted by Rockme

I find it very interesting that about 98% of the “bi” threads I have read have a response from you!

98%? Which ones have I missed?

Originally Posted by Rockme

In fact when I wrote the thing I kept saying to myself how many hours before Spoomonkey jumps in on this one?! I knew you would!!

It is flattering to know that you wrote your post with me in mind. I had you in mind when I wrote my response.

Originally Posted by Rockme

I would think after saying the same thing over and over again to each “bi” thread you come across it would get old.

Not really. I almost have this on a template...

The truth is, the SAME points are made about "labeling", "compensation", etc. And the same subtle inferences are always floating at some level beneath the surface...

My question to you is: why, if we have so many threads that make the same points, do we need to revisit it? I am completely okay with people asking the same questions as many different ways as they want to. Everyone either does - or believe they - have a unique take on the issue - so ask away...

But don't get pissy if I respond...

Originally Posted by Rockme

Do you sit around waiting for another “bi” thread so you can announce to the world “I’m straight!”

No - actually, I kind of roll my eyes...

Originally Posted by Rockme

What are you so afraid of?

Afraid is inaccurate...

Though this is a soap box issue for me because of the broken record feel of it all. Because it all comes back to the same thing, doesn't it? Just be you - without needing the validation. It's a good thing

For the record, I have no problems with bisexual men. In fact, I hang out with a group of homosexual men more than I hang out with straight guys. I wasn't looking for that, but they are great guys who I enjoy. Their sexuality is not a threat to me.

It is a source of humor - as is mine for them - but they are amazingly self-confident.

Oddly, they are completely comfortable with my straightness... I wonder why the bi-men around here can't be as open-minded as they are...

Originally Posted by Rockme

You take a post that is 100% my opinion, which by the way I can feel anyway I want, and turn it into your form for word play.

I responded with what is 100% my opinion, which by the way I can feel anyway I want... And I am not turning it into "word play". I am pointing out the difference between a definition and a label.

I would think trying to shirk the definitions is more "word play"... Right?

Originally Posted by Rockme

You can stroke your ego and chaise people away.

If I chase people away, I apologize. I have never said a bad word about bisexuals.

As far as my ego goes - I am not sure how much stroking it really needs

Originally Posted by Rockme

I stand by my original post.

Same here.

Originally Posted by Rockme

Not you nor anyone else will scare me away!

Good! That is not my intention. But as long as you are here, I will challenge your fallacies on this point.

Originally Posted by Rockme

You are not “bi”, GREAT!

I totally agree!

Originally Posted by Rockme

Stop hanging out on “bi” threads!!

Stop making assumptions about straight men and I will

Originally Posted by Rockme

Or is this purely an ego trip for you?

Not an ego trip at all... Just a matter of clarifying foggy thinking... A thing I tend to do anywhere that I feel I can have an input.

Originally Posted by Rockme

Are you into water sport, foot fetish, hair pulling and such?

Actually - just the hair pulling. I do have a minor foot fetish, but I mostly just enjoy giving foot rubs...

Originally Posted by Rockme

Why you ask? There have been threads done about those subjects as well. Why no wise words from Spoomonkey on those subjects?

Not always - but anytime they make a statement like "all people should be into water sports" I will speak up. Of course... Or have you not seen those posts? Perhaps reading every post I've made on bisexual threads has kept you too busy...

Originally Posted by Rockme

Why don’t I read “I ain’t no foot smeller” being posted by you? I would think you would want to make it clear on EVERY subject you don’t do or don’t agree with?!

Where is the "foot smeller" thread? I must admit, I missed that one...

But as for feeling like I need everyone to know my position on every "kink" - no. Of course I don't. But I do feel very compelled when people make baseless assumptions about people who do not share their particular interests - as you have done on this thread...

Originally Posted by Rockme

This board is open for a wide variety of opinions and discussion. It is not warranted or proper to attack another person.

No - it is not. If you felt attacked, I do apologize. Sincerely. However, let us make no mistake that this entire thread was made in the form of an attack. Was it not? Did you not begin your "thesis" by questioning whether or not straight men who post to bi-threads and make the point of saying they are straight are somehow compensating and afraid?

As you said - neither warranted or proper...

Originally Posted by Rockme

You don’t like what I am saying, then just don’t respond to the thread.

Well - that is just silly. Why would I simply not respond to that which I disagree with? What would be the point of having a board full of folks who simply go to the threads where they can pat someone on the back?

What an incredible resource that would be... :rollseyes

Originally Posted by Rockme

It is counterproductive to everyone to have to sensor they’re thought out of fear of attack.

Again - I do not believe that I attacked anyone. Please show me where I did... But - neither will I "censor" my thought.

Originally Posted by Rockme

Most swingers live with that fear from the general public. We look to this as one of those places we can call home. All I can say is may your life and your future posts come under as much scrutiny. Maybe then you will understand?

Oh... Okay...



Spoomonkey

[Mr. Truelove]

I think that there are many gay or bisexual men out there that feel a need to justify or validate their orientation by looking at what they have done and applying it to others so that they feel "normal".

Keep in mind that I am not saying that bisexuality is abnormal. I am stating that I feel that many bisexual men started out feeling it was wrong. Just as many women were taught the same thing.

For instance. If a person is bisexual, and they've hidden their feeling for a long time. Then they go through with it and like it, it becomes easy to assume that anyone that isn't bisexual is actually curious, but hiding it just as the bisexual male was.

I disagree with that. There are simply some people that aren't interested in men at all.

I also think that bisexual men look at the percentage of bisexual females versus males and think that the number should be the same and assume that more males are in the closet because it is still more "taboo" that being a bisexual female.

I think that is also incorrect.

The situation of Masculinity and feminism comes into play there. In my opinion, female on female contact (in the majority) tends to be a feminate act. Which is fine, women are expected to be feminine. However in my opinion, Male on Male contact tends to make one of the members feminine. Since that is a contrast to what would be normal that makes it more of a turnoff.

So it's my opinion then that Bisexualality in women should expectedly be more dominate than in males.

With this in mind I feel that many bisexual men, through the need to feel vindicated, will look at faulty bases of information and apply labels such as "homophobe" or "closeminded" to straight people unfairly.

To label us that is unfair. And many of us will stand up and voice our opinions on the matter for the same reason as if we had labelled you whatever.