The "bi" subject

[Mr. Truelove]

Oh, and I forgot to add that I am straight. And even though I might have gay friends, there is no way, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never that I would have feelings for a guy.

[Rockme]

“Stop making assumptions about straight men and I will.” I read my original post over again and could not find any “assumption towards you or anyone else.”

I want to do something that Spoomonkey is very found of. I want to repost my original post and break it down again the list of charges that Spoomonky has made. I want to find out what I am guilty of and not guilty of. On the charges I am guilty, I stand corrected. List of Spoonmonkey charges in his own words....


1. "Bisexual" is not a label that straight guys made up. It was actually borrowed from psychology. It is not a "label" as much as it is a simple descriptor.
(After review I don’t find at any time I said it was “a label made up by straight guys.” I am reviewing rather to give you the point on label vs descriptor. As you see, in this use, can be one in the same.)

2. Sexual Utopia - or open-minded-ness - is not defined by men being willing ot have sex with other men. That may be YOUR definition of Utopia, but it is not mine. I am not a low brow, an idiot or a homophobe. I am simply unapologetically straight.
(This gets a very big NOT GUILTY! I can find no talk of my definition of Sexual Utopia. I also find at NO time did I define Sexual Utopia. I also NEVER called you a “low brow, idiot or homophobe. Yes, you are an unapologetically straight man.)

3. What I find highly insulting is the idea that it is somehow more enlightened to be bisexual. Frankly, I think it would be incredibly "unevolved" to be that which I am not - to be dishonest with myself.
(Not guilty again of ever saying anyone is more “enlightened being bisexual.” I also, at no time, asked anyone to be something they are not! I never talked about “evolution” or being more “evolved” being bi. I at no time asked anyone to be “dishonest” with themselves.)

4. Why do bisexual men feel a need to debate this point over and over? What are THEY compensating for? Do they need all men to admit some sort of bi-ness to feel comfortable with who they are? Why are they so afraid of being unique?
(Never did I ask anyone to “admit their bi-ness”. Never did I say I was afraid of being different or unique in anyway. Compared to the number of posts on a wide variety of subject’s “bi” posts are small in number. As to “why we feel a need to debate this point over and over?” At no time did I present this as a debate. It was more of this is what I am and this is how I look at it. It was more a question of labels, then a debate aimed at straight guys. We also may talk about it over and over again to reach out to those who believe as we do. This post, shocking to you I know, was more aimed at those who think like I do. Those who understand what I am going through. Not at Mr. “Straight” Man!)

5. You did not post this thread as a question about bisexuality - you asked pointedly why the straight guys respond to these threads. Did you not want us to tell you why we do? Perhaps you started your thread for all the wrong reasons...
(Guilty on this point. I should have left my point about you and others making such a point of being “not bi” out. It did little to add to my post. The humor was lost I can see on you. So you get your first guilty out of me.)


6. As long as the insinuation is that straight men are somehow less enlightened, less tolerant, less honest or less self-actualized than Bi-men, then I feel I have a right and a responsibility to challenge that.
(Not guilty! At no point was it ever insinuated or flat out said that straight men are “less enlighten, less tolerant, less honest or less self actualized than bi men. In fact, I feel you should be ashamed of even making up such a charge!)

7. So - you posted - I challenged. And I stand by my response, just as proudly as you stand by your first post. However, I would like to point out that my post does not question anyone's orientation as yours does
(Not guilty! At no point and time did I ever “challenge” yours or anyone else's sexual orientation. In fact, you have challenged me and my sexual orientation with every charge you have made. With ever charge and generalization you have made about me and my lifestyle.)


Original post by Rockme
I have noticed a few things while reading MANY different posts on the subject of being “bi”. We seem to have a lot of people who are label happy. (Let me stop there. “Lot of people” Did I say “straight people” or “bi people”?) We have this desire to slap a label on people and situations. I have read questions like “I kissed another woman 10 years ago, does this make me bi?” or “during play with my woman another man’s penis hit my leg, does this mean I am now bi?” We want to attach a label to what happened out of fear. What is that fear we hold so deep down inside? Do we all have a fear of being “bi” and liking it?! Is it the fear that society has taught us that being “bi”, especially two males, is wrong? (This at no time singles out only males who are straight. In fact it uses a little humor to get the point across. These are all real subjects I have read while reading other threads. So, first paragraph, no attack on “Straight males”. No name calling. None of the charges show up.)

I laugh when I read those males whom almost over compensate in their posts on this subject. The ones who say “I’m not gay or bi and I would never, never, never, never, never, never touch another guy! My wife has touched another woman, but again, I would never ever, not in a million years, not unless you paid me a million dollars, touch another man.” (this is where #5 guilty comes in.)These same guys keep showing up on all the “bi” question posts. They feel it important to set the record straight before giving us their two cents. Almost like they believe someone will log on and say “HEY, I did not know he was gay or bi!!!” I may show up on some thread about “water sport”, but that does not mean I am into it. By reading other posts this is how we learn about thing. (End of paragraph two and still waiting for the “straight men are somehow less enlightened, less tolerant, less honest or less self-actualized than Bi-men.” It all must be coming soon.)

I don’t know about you but I can’t spend the rest of my life so worried about labels. When my wife and I play we go out to have fun. We connect with the other couple or person and have fun. We don’t sit around saying “tonight will be the “bi” night.” We go with the mood and what the other person or persons want. My wife is not “bi” at all. She makes this clear to those we play with. She does not want another woman making a move on her. But if another woman’s boob hits her arm during play she does not freak out and say “does this make me “bi” now?” When do we get to the world where we look at each other as humans and not male/female? When do we get to the point that you can touch the same sex and not have to label it? 99% of my sexual life has been with women only. I have had oral sex with a few men, period. If this makes me gay, bi or what ever other label you see fit, then so be it! I think I am someone who is open to the human touch. (End of original post and what happened? Where were the charges? This last paragraph talks about labels, my wife and I, and what I like. Maybe I get on the platform a little much with the “look at each other as humans and not male/female.” I know, in the literal sense, we need those basic labels. I understand what that means. Maybe I was speaking more for understanding and love, then literally doing away with all labels on earth. To use Spoomonkey’s famous talk about labels vs descriptors. Is male and female not a descriptor more than a label? Point is that at no time did this post attack anyone. The charges and attack led by Spoomonkey was not justified. Your way of life will go on my friend. My hope is we can put all of this behind us. Try not to be so sensitive about your life style and I will do the same. Maybe reread my post and understand where I am coming from. I have read a number of your posts on this and other subjects. The reason I knew you would have the biggest problem with this post was based on what I have read in you’re past posts on the subject. It was not written to attract you to the post or challenge you. But in the end I knew it would warrant a response from you. Enjoy your life my friend and lighten up!)

[prettylady]

Originally Posted by Mr. Truelove

Oh, and I forgot to add that I am straight. And even though I might have gay friends, there is no way, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never, never that I would have feelings for a guy.

Are you sure?
Your friend,
Prettylady

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by prettylady

Are you sure?
Your friend,
Prettylady

Yes, I am sure. That is my Final Answer. Oh wait....um...yeah, I think so.

[EvilMJ]

As a "bi" woman I can give you a reason why I personally think labels have merit.

Becuase "bi" is such hazy gray area that most people are unsure of, sometimes clarifying what "bi" means to you as a person is helpful. To me, being bisexual means that you enjoy sexual contact with members of the same sex as well as the opposite sex. I enjoy men much more than women, but I do enjoy women.

It gets annoying (and I am sure people have seen me post this one before) when you get women (or men I suppose but I can't speak from that side of things) who say they are bi or imply they are bi but in the end they aren't. It leaves you confused and angry because they are misrepresnting themselves.

If you go into it saying"oh we don't like labels so we don't call ourselves bi or not bi" then I am probably not going to have much to do with you. It's not becuase you are not good people but if I don't have a clear sense as to where your head is before I get into things, I am not going to want to waste my time or put myself into a potentially embarassing, uncomfortable position when play starts. I want a clear definition of where you stand. Are you fully bi sexual, are you just above the waist play, do you like just kissing women, are you 100% straight with no interest in bi sexual play at all? I do play with straight couples, I respect their sexuality and enjoy my time with them but they are clear from the onset where their boundaries are. I also don't play with every woman I meet either, it is just like being straight, I play with the people who attract me, but I make it clear to them from the beginning what will be happening or what will not be happening.

I also think that everyone has the right to post their opinon straight, bi or gay. It isn't fair to bash on Spoomonkey or any other straight man or women who feels complelled to post their opinon or comments. They have as much right to defend their sexuality/preference as much as anyone else. I have to agree with Goodtimes, when you make a comment like "everyone is a little bi" or wonder why straight guys have to state their are 100% straight, then they have the right to respond.

[Dooode]

Originally Posted by EvilMJ

Becuase "bi" is such hazy gray area that most people are unsure of, sometimes clarifying what "bi" means to you as a person is helpful. To me, being bisexual means that you enjoy sexual contact with members of the same sex as well as the opposite sex. I enjoy men much more than women, but I do enjoy women.

It gets annoying (and I am sure people have seen me post this one before) when you get women (or men I suppose but I can't speak from that side of things) who say they are bi or imply they are bi but in the end they aren't. It leaves you confused and angry because they are misrepresnting themselves..

I think that's where the Kensey Scale can really put to good use. Where a "0" is a completely hetero individual, a "1" would have mild bi-curiosities and may even act on them.

I don't think that a "1" is as much misrepresenting themselves as much as there is incompatibility between "1" and ... say, "3".

As a side-comment, it's funny to watch Spoomonkey and Rockme having a swordfight. Who says guys don't foreplay between each other?

[Rockme]

Originally Posted by Dooode

I think that's where the Kensey Scale can really put to good use. Where a "0" is a completely hetero individual, a "1" would have mild bi-curiosities and may even act on them.

I don't think that a "1" is as much misrepresenting themselves as much as there is incompatibility between "1" and ... say, "3".

As a side-comment, it's funny to watch Spoomonkey and Rockme having a swordfight. Who says guys don't foreplay between each other?

You are a funny man I am putting down that "sword". Some things are just not worth it. It does not change who I am and it does not change who he is. We both walk away saying "I proved my point!" :rollseyes

[Chicup]

I'm heterosexual, its ok if you label me that

I think the real issue is that many bi-males still have the gradeschool issue of how males put each other down using terms like 'faggot' and the like. Its hard to maintain your manly image of yourself when you are having homosexual sex. Add to it that bi-male activity is not openly accepted in the lifestyle, and you get a very defensive subset of swingers who attempt to justify itself by claiming that those of us who are straight are somehow repressed. Its an attempt to make themselves feel better in their own insecurities.

It is this type of thing which keep Spoo, myself and others posting in the bi male threads. Its not that we give a crap what you do or feel threatened by you, but being a discussion board, we will point out when we think someone is wrong, and the idea that straight males are only straight out of fear or whatever is quite wrong.

Likewise a lot of new swingers come to this board for information. Swinging is a scary thing to start for most people, and you are worried about being forced into situations you are not comfortable. You don't know what type of people swing or what they are into. For these people, I think its good to show them that it is possible to swing and be straight, even the females . I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experiance for them.

So if you are a man who likes having sex with other men, good for you, I have no problem accepting that you like to do that and that other swingers do too. Just remember that there are also many men who have no desire to have sex with another man, it has nothing to do with our insecurities, and accept that we are not into what you are into.

[Dooode]

hahahaha Chicup!!! Hot damn! That was funny!!!

Believe me, Daddy: People are quite capable of making decisions on their own without any of yours or my influence.

Originally Posted by CHICUP

I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experiance for them.

:rollseyes

Bisexuality is a personal decision every person (male or female) makes for themselves and you attempting to influence them is not going to alter their feelings, urges, curiosities or opinions.

I'm sorry. People do have their own minds. It's true!!

Sexually speaking, people can change sexual orientations throughout their lives. I know of a woman I swung with who lived a lesbian life, yet was bisexual by the time I met her. Personally, I was hetero and became a bisexual. Hetero women experiment with bisexuality and either enjoy it or not. Same with some men. Some people specifically join swinging to indulge in their bisexual interests.

... and it's all happening within the swinging lifestyle: behind closed bedroom doors, at swing parties, at clubs, on message boards and chat rooms all over the internet ... whether you feel obligated to protect them or not.

Scary, huh?

[Mr. Truelove]

Originally Posted by Dooode

hahahaha Chicup!!! Hot damn! That was funny!!!

Believe me, Daddy: People are quite capable of making decisions on their own without any of yours or my influence.

I don't think his point was making decisions for them. It was more or less showing them that this lifestyle is a representation of many people of different orientations.

Each orientation speaking up in these bisexual threads keep an even field so people get an accurate basis for their decisions.

So, with that being my assessment of what Chicup meant, then I agree with his post and don't feel he was attempting to be arrogant.

[good times]

Dito Mr. Truelove's take on Chiccup's post. If the only responses to these bi threads were other bi guys it would be easy for a newbie to the board to get the impression that one is expected to be bi to be a swinger. In reality, while bi-male activity is much more accepted now than it was just a couple of years ago, it is still pretty rare. Here in Reno just two years ago all of the local on-premise clubs had a rule that no MM activities were allowed at the clubs. Now, while it is still discouraged in the public areas at two of the three clubs it isn't banned anymore at any of them.

[Dooode]

Originally Posted by good times

If the only responses to these bi threads were other bi guys it would be easy for a newbie to the board to get the impression that one is expected to be bi to be a swinger.

And does this hold true for bi-women as well? How about swingers who practice BDSM? Are they fairly represented by these same responders?

The simple fact is that if you scan the responses to this particular topic, men AND women were responding to bisexuality, and not just to male bisexuality. The topic is fairly represented by those who were interested in bisexuality.

Originally Posted by good times

In reality, while bi-male activity is much more accepted now than it was just a couple of years ago, it is still pretty rare. Here in Reno just two years ago all of the local on-premise clubs had a rule that no MM activities were allowed at the clubs. Now, while it is still discouraged in the public areas at two of the three clubs it isn't banned anymore at any of them.

True 'nuff. Who knows where it will be in another 20 years? Is that good or bad? I honestly don't know.

I personally don't see sexes so much as I see people. If I find a person attractive, it doesn't particularly matter to me what their sex is. I know that's not how the hetero (and gay!) orientations work, but this is my own personal view.

I meet with bi-couples for the most part. I am a regular at bisexual house parties (where I am the only single amongst many bi-couples) 5-6 times a year. There is an upscale bisexual swing club in Ft Lauderdale I am DYING to go to. I have been to hetero clubs (both on and off-premises), hetero house parties, meet & greets, and have also met and practiced BDSM activities with couples, even met swingers at nudist resorts.

Is that the swing standard? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

People see and decide for themselves what's right for them in Swinging. Everyone is different. Some are soft swing. Some are hardcore. The Lifestyle is not iron-clad in any orientation or activity. If the Lifestyle is to be represented, represent it for what it is to YOU.

To do otherwise IS arrogant.

Umm ... in my humble opinion.

[JustAskJulie]

Originally Posted by Dooode

And does this hold true for bi-women as well? How about swingers who practice BDSM? Are they fairly represented by these same responders?

Sadly no. There is a double standard between bi-women and bi-men and it's been discussed here over and over again. While in general it is NOT the norm for guys in the lifestyle to be bi... in many cases it's so not the norm that it's just downright not accepted to the point that those who are bi are often afraid to speak up. Yet on the other end of the scale it is not only the norm for women to be bi but EXPECTED for them to be, to the point that many women who are new to the lifestyle and NOT bi do get scared off by the idea, thus posts that we've seen from woman asking if they will be accepted if they are not bi.

It's a bit strange isn't it that straight women and bisexual men in the lifestyle are basically put into the same boat as oddities and against the norm. Hell, I'm bi and I often feel pressured from other bi women, I'd hate to see how it would feel to be a straight woman in this lifestyle. I can imagine that she would feel even more pressured, and I would think that should a new couple come to the lifestyle and the first thing they find is the many threads we have here on male bisexuality they may be wondering to themselves the same question that women often end up asking "do I have to be bi to swing?".

[Dooode]

Originally Posted by JustAskJulie

I can imagine that she would feel even more pressured, and I would think that should a new couple come to the lifestyle and the first thing they find is the many threads we have here on male bisexuality they may be wondering to themselves the same question that women often end up asking "do I have to be bi to swing?".

Julie:

I am the forum newbie around here and I find it hard to believe that swing newbies would be so gullible as to think that male bisexuality is a norm (if it was, I would be out of business and become "just another single guy"!! haha).

But if it's a site concern, perhaps we should have a forum specifically laid out for bisexuals to discuss bisexuality? As SpooMonkey indicated, it is a growing acceptance in the community, and even more women are curious today than they were 10 years ago.

It would be a good place for people to talk and realize "Hey, I'm not the only one after all!" and not interfere with mainstream swing themes.

An idea ...

[reed&diana]

Originally Posted by Chicup

ISwinging is a scary thing to start for most people, and you are worried about being forced into situations you are not comfortable. You don't know what type of people swing or what they are into. For these people, I think its good to show them that it is possible to swing and be straight, even the females . I would not want to give them the wrong impression that male bi activity is the norm for swinging and scare them off from what could be a great experiance for them.

Whoa, just reading through this thread and this hit me like a ball bat. To me that says a lot about Chicup's attitude. If you have no desire for bi sex, that's fine, but why call bi males scary? Why are they any more scary to straight people than bi females. Bi males can respect boundries jsut as straight people. The chances of a bi male tieing you to the bed and having their way with you are very slim. My wife is bi but to my knowledge, she has not forced a straight woman to eat her.