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idon'tknow

Rules, boundaries, to do and not do?

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I know everyone is different in terms of what rules and boundaries they have and I anticipate the wife and I will be the same. In terms of boundaries... the wife and I were talking yesterday and she asked "what are your boundaries?" I thought about it and I honestly don't even know where to begin.

 

Initially the only thing I could feel comfortable with is straight vaginal sex (not true, right now the only thing I'd feel comfortable with is not even talking about it, this train's not backing up though and I'm fine with that--I made her very satisfied with just me the other night, and in turn I was very very satisfied so we'll keep riding this train to see where it takes us).

 

Most of my boundaries revolve around making sure she's safe (many of these were her ideas as well): same room, no hall-passes, no anal, always condoms, no DP and we must absolutely know for sure the couple and have been out with them a number of times before hand (ie... no random people met online that we haven't spent some significant time with).

 

What about oral? As a health-care professional I know how easy it is to pass things around and the oral cavity is an environment rife for the growth and perpetuation of practically anything nasty. How do you prevent that? Condoms for oral too? Sounds yucky, but then an std in the mouth sounds yuckier.

 

What else? What are other things we should consider as newbies?

 

p.s. I know there are threads about this topic already but it's difficult to sift through them all and find things that are relevant to me and her.

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Most of my boundaries revolve around making sure she's safe (many of these were her ideas as well): same room, no hall-passes, no anal, always condoms, no DP and we must absolutely know for sure the couple and have been out with them a number of times before hand (ie... no random people met online that we haven't spent some significant time with).

 

What about oral? As a health-care professional I know how easy it is to pass things around and the oral cavity is an environment rife for the growth and perpetuation of practically anything nasty. How do you prevent that? Condoms for oral too? Sounds yucky, but then an std in the mouth sounds yuckier.

 

What else? What are other things we should consider as newbies?

 

p.s. I know there are threads about this topic already but it's difficult to sift through them all and find things that are relevant to me and her.

 

I've been wrestling with something since I first read this and still don't have complete clarity. There's something about devising boundaries to protect only one member of a couple that disturbs me. So, my advice on things to consider is that this is something you do together and the rules you come up with are about protecting what is important to both of you. In addition, the rules should be about risk management rather than fear and only when you can make that distinction should you even consider swinging.

 

In terms of oral sex, I think we do a fair amount of magical thinking. However, most STIs transmitted orally are easily curable and for the ones that aren't, like herpes, barriers aren't going to be particularly effective. However, there are flavored condoms (I think the strawberry ones are slightly less disgusting than all other flavors), dental dams and Saran Wrap and using them isn't unheard of. If you are concerned that partners might be HIV positive, though, mutual and frequent testing is probably a good idea.

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There's something about devising boundaries to protect only one member of a couple that disturbs me.

 

Me too. Honestly the more I think about this and the more I try and want to get into it, the more I think I'm not wired for this and the more I feel like I'm going to disappoint my wife and the more that hurts me because I feel like it's really going to hurt her and then she's going to not want to be with me. I don't think I can do it. Yesterday as we were driving home from St. Paul she told me she was fine if I would want a hall-pass because she's sure there are people out there who could do stuff to me that she just doesn't want to do (she brought up swallowing... I'm not interested in a woman swallowing my man-stuff, I wouldn't want to swallow it why would I want someone else to swallow it? That was just an example though). So I asked, "is there anything you want me to do that I'm not doing?" She replied with, "I don't know... I don't know what can really be done to another person."

 

I ask her what her boundaries are and she says she really doesn't have any besides no anal. Then I throw out, "so you're completely okay with either me in front (or back) and another guy in back (or front)?" And she thinks about it for a second and says, "umm... I don't know." I say, "what do you want then?" and she says she just wants to explore things. Ok. That's fine nothing wrong with that... but "what exactly do you want to explore? Do you want another man's cock in you? Do you want a woman? What do you want?" I never really get a clear answer. It feels wrong, something feels "off" about this and I don't know what it is. Part of me feels like she's trying to force me to do and be something I don't want to be (I have nothing against it), the other part really really really doesn't want to disappoint her... and then that part (this is some freaky stuff I'm about to say right here) thinks "well, maybe if I wasn't a factor she wouldn't have to worry then she could go out and have fun without having to worry about me." I feel like a fucking schizo.

 

This is making me crazy. One second I think I could be okay with it, the other second I'm like I am right now, just going crazy. I'm trying to want something I don't want for someone I'm deeply madly in love with, someone I'm satisfied with, someone I'm happy with and when she brings it up I feel like she's not satisfied or happy with me. And the kicker is I would totally do this for her, I would do something that I didn't want to do because I love the hell out of her, I do stuff for her all the time that I don't want to do because I love the hell out of her and I usually enjoy doing it... and then I think, what's something I've wanted to do that she's then done even if she didn't want to... and I can't think of anything, but then that's because I usually don't bring anything up, because when I used to she never wanted to do it. Is this whole thing just the writing on the wall? GAH!

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You know, the discussion about swinging can take a decade before couples actually decide to swing or not swing. I'm not certain why you feel so rushed and as if you have to solve all of this now. You don't. What you both do have to do, and this is independent of the swinging question, is learn to communicate better. It would help if you got out of your own way or at least suppressed the panic enough to listen, but even that can be useful if you let it.

 

It's also way too soon, really, to talk about boundaries. Instead, talk about your marriage and where you're at. Find out if your wife really is unsatisfied with you or merely wants some variety (which I can certainly identify with, as even though the sex with Mr. Doe is far better than it would be with any playmate, I still like having playmates). Maybe spend some time really understanding that self-sacrifice looks like love, it usually isn't. It actually usually stems from fear of loss.

 

Finally, many women will not give details about their fantasies or boundaries or weird kinks unless they're completely certain that it's a totally safe environment. If not, there are a lot of "I don't know" responses. Is she certain she can tell you anything? What about writing it down and having you read it later?

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idon'tknow, between this thread and your other thread, I really feel for you. It's so clear that you really want to try to make this work to make your wife happy. But throughout, it's also just as apparent that all of this is giving you stress, anxiety, and heartache. Personally, I don't think you're weird, freaky, or schizo. You are feeling the way that you are feeling and it's normal. Has she been pressing the swinging idea on you a lot? Could it just be imaginary?

 

You know that super cheesy line about how if you love someone, set them free; if they come back, then they're yours, if not they never were. I think that quote has its heart in the right place. For me, swinging has shown me how possessive I was of Mr. Sun. I fretted that if he looked, thought, fantasized about other women that he wasn't happy with me. That he wished to be with someone else. For me, jealousy was a word that encompassed many insecurities about myself, Mr. Sun and our relationship. For years, I had come to the conclusion that monogamy must be something that only really special couples can accomplish successfully and we weren't one of them. I had to slowly open my eyes to what "jealousy" was doing for us and it was all negative. And marriage seems to infer a type of ownership and possession between the couple that seemed to fight against our ideal of individualism. Jealousy might be a combination of different things for yourself. I know you wrote that you aren't the jealous type but there seems to be some kind of underpinning throughout your threads that hint, at the very least, an unease about what swinging will do to the relationship you have with your wife. And that is a good concern.

 

From what is sounds like, you are trying to talk to her about all of this but she is also "I don't know"-y about this. As before, my recommendation is to not swing at this time. Keep reading and asking questions on the forum but don't have any swinging experiences planned any time soon. Let her know that you love her and want her to be happy but you are not comfortable about going forward with it right now. Perhaps you two need to work on communication with each other, because that is one of the required stepping stones for successful swinging (and marriage for that matter).

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There was a lot of stuff in that post wasn't there. First of all let's chalk some of that emotion up to me working a 12 hour shift and coming home to a house that I needed to clean, and a wife who was frustrated about something she didn't want to talk about (which I didn't push).

 

What you both do have to do, and this is independent of the swinging question, is learn to communicate better. It would help if you got out of your own way or at least suppressed the panic enough to listen, but even that can be useful if you let it.

 

Word. The last two weeks or so have been communication city and it's been great. I've loved it. It's what I've been wanting for such a long time. I've held back a lot of things, and, this is going to be lame excuse, I've held them back because whenever I would try and communicate from my heart early in our marriage I would get a lot of defensiveness back from her or clamming up. Our drive back from our San Diego honeymoon I tried to talk to her about something we hadn't really spent that much time talking about... us and our future (shhhh... no judging, I know it's something we should've spent more time talking about BEFORE we married, we didn't, no changing it now), she clammed up and got quite defensive and it's always stuck in my head. It took me about 6 months before I felt like I could talk to her about my feelings of the mormon faith (she got really angry then, even went and talked to one of the local leaders without my knowledge about me... the same local leader I had to get a restraining order against for badgering me at work, her at work and my eldest daughter). I can do better, she can do better... fuck that (pardon my language) WE can do better.

 

No excuse though. Time for a paradigm shift.

 

And marriage seems to infer a type of ownership and possession between the couple that seemed to fight against our ideal of individualism. Jealousy might be a combination of different things for yourself. I know you wrote that you aren't the jealous type but there seems to be some kind of underpinning throughout your threads that hint, at the very least, an unease about what swinging will do to the relationship you have with your wife.

 

One of the big things that bothers me about these emotions that are surfacing is this. I feel like all this time I haven't been the jealous type, then suddenly out of nowhere I am, or at least I'm having some jealous tendencies. When she re-acquainted with some old male friend of hers (the man-child) I wasn't jealous of him, I was more jealous that he had the time to spend with her while I needed to have my nose in the books or working.

 

You know, the discussion about swinging can take a decade before couples actually decide to swing or not swing. I'm not certain why you feel so rushed and as if you have to solve all of this now.

 

I know why I feel rushed, because I know the type of woman she is (very little patience). I know why we shouldn't rush is more important though. So we're not going to rush.

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I think it's great that all of this has gotten you two to communicate better. I think that happens with a lot of couples here. And maui is right, don't race to get all of this done. I know it can seem like you're being pressured or that one of you is impatient but if the both of you are in the right place together for this, the one that wants to hurry will realize that this is for the both of you, not one of you. If she really does love and respect you, she will wait until you are ready. If you're never ready, then she has to be okay with that, too. If she's not and she feels this is something that she can't live without while you feel the opposite then there needs to be a big discussion about that by itself.

 

As for posting emotionally, I don't see anything wrong with that. I know that a lot of people think that talking and posting while in a highly emotional state is bad, I disagree. Yes, you might act in ways that you will regret later but what comes out of you mouth is something that has been suppressed and you can no longer keep them at bay. I don't recommend that this occurs all the time and eventually, you will need to learn to get that stuff out when you're not emotional but for those that don't or can't communicate with those around them because they feel that they might be belittled or ignored if they do, airing out your feelings when you're emotional is good. I keep an online journal for this reason.

 

I highly advise you to pore over the jealousy threads.

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you guys are pretty cool. That's not just the margarita, the dehydration, and the beer talking either. It's true. I have a ways to go with this. I'll keep going. Marriage is work, right? A lot of hard hard work. Sometimes the work isn't what was anticipated. I'm cool with that.

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I told her I was ready for the dialogue, but not ready for swinging... yet. She was a little upset but not much. Her big thing is that she doesn't want me to "lead her on" by being wishy-washy for a long time and then say, "no." She would prefer if I say no that I say it now, but honestly I like a lot of the things that this has opened up for us, so I can't say no because even though it's driving me up the wall occasionally and kinda making me crazy, between the communication being better, the sex being better and "us" being better I really really like where it's taken us so far and I think it would be a mistake to say "no" to swinging. I'm just not ready yet.

 

She understands. I hope it's okay if I hang out here for a while talking about swinging and shit, even if we don't do it... yet. You guys are pretty cool.

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Marriage is work' date=' right? A lot of hard hard work. Sometimes the work isn't what was anticipated. I'm cool with that.[/quote']

 

I think that's what the problem with society today. They don't realize it takes work to maintain and keep a relationship going. It's too much sweat and blood to push through the hard times so it's easier to give up and be with someone new where it's exciting, new, and smooth going at the beginning.

 

I told her I was ready for the dialogue, but not ready for swinging... yet. She was a little upset but not much. Her big thing is that she doesn't want me to "lead her on" by being wishy-washy for a long time and then say, "no." She would prefer if I say no that I say it now, but honestly I like a lot of the things that this has opened up for us, so I can't say no because even though it's driving me up the wall occasionally and kinda making me crazy, between the communication being better, the sex being better and "us" being better I really really like where it's taken us so far and I think it would be a mistake to say "no" to swinging. I'm just not ready yet.

 

She understands. I hope it's okay if I hang out here for a while talking about swinging and shit, even if we don't do it... yet. You guys are pretty cool.

 

I think she has to realize that people are in a constant state of change. We experience, we learn, we grow...repeat. Those who are new to swinging would have thought the idea of it was crazy years ago. Some who have done swinging for years decide that it no longer fits who they have become. Some change in how they swing over time. I think it's very short minded to say, "I'll never do ______." You don't know what circumstances you will encounter that will change your mind.

 

This is just the beginning: communicating about it. If you two do get involved in the swinging community, there will still be work to be done. It's not a walk in the park. There will be good experiences and bad ones. There will be disappointment at times. Finding couples where everyone is interested can be tough depending on attraction, rules, boundaries, and play styles. What needs to be remembered throughout swinging (or not) is that you two come first. The health and well-being of your relationship should be the focus. If there is a crack or strain, then you should stop, evaluate, talk, and do what you need to do to repair it.

 

And we all welcome your presence on the forum. There are many people here that have never swapped. There are those that have in the past but no longer swing for various reasons. I think it's the open, honest, and helping vibe of the community that brings people in and keep them here.

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Trying to find your way in an unfamiliar landscape has nothing to do with being wishy-washy, nor is it a way to disguise dislike of something. I hope your wife does her part of the work, some of which has to do with comfort zones, safety and the utmost respect for the slower person's right to set the pace for the couple.

 

Sunbuckus is correct in that all are welcome here, whether they swing or not. That's part of the beauty of what Julie has built here over the years.

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Don't most of us "Noobs" experience anxiety in some shape or form at first? With my GF & I, we kind of initiated the exploration of the LS together, equally. While the idea of her being pleasured by another man is very exciting to me, it's also causing some anxiety. I hope that's normal. One thing is for certain, these discussions have brought us closer as a couple and improved our communication. Sex has always been amazing... I expect that to continue.

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Hoosier, a little nervousness is normal. However, from idon'tknow's posts there is definitely more than just a little anxiety. He has moments of not wanting to swing at all and only doing this for his wife which can be harmful to their relationship if they proceed to swap sooner than they are ready. Swinging requires an element of teamwork and they are still working on that issue.

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Hoosier, I'm sorry if it seemed that I thought you were comparing the situations. Yes, it is normal to have jitters before going out even for more experienced swingers. It's just that there are different types of jitters...the excited type and the "I really hate this" type.

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I went back are reread your first 2 posts, idon'tknow, and I have to say that you left me as confused as you are likely feeling right now. If there is that much confusion and chaos surrounding your thoughts about swinging, don't do it. If you have reservations or are going to do it only to please your wife, then don't do it. If you are not expressing your confusion, your thoughts and your reservations to your wife in the way that you are expressing them in your posts, then don't do it until you do and her are BOTH on the same page and understand each other's needs.

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Being safe, having "safe sex", is smart. However having too many rules kind of takes away the "feel free to enjoy yourself" part of the excitement and may lead to your playmate's "performance anxiety". I think you may be considering doing it with people you don't know. I understand how hard it is to find people to play with. My advice is to spend time with people who feel the same way you do in a non sexual way. I know that can be frustrating if you are itching to get things started but you'll find people who feel the same way you do. We mostly played with people we already knew or who knew the people we knew at parties or whatever. The further away from the people we already knew the more cautious we were. There were many times of worrying after play. We met someone online and it was straight missionary sex with him wearing a condom the first few times. As we got to know him better we became comfortable to the point where he began having bareback sex with her and our play expanded to her sucking him and pretty much whatever else.

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I am not going to pretend to be an expert here, but it does not sound like the communication between you two is very good! It seems that could really cause a lot of problems if you did decide to play with others. Not really knowing what each other is comfortable with or what each other really wants out of this. To many things could happen when playing with others that could come back to haunt you after the fact. For myself there is no way I could have stepped into this LS with my lady if when I asked her what she wanted out of it she said I don't know. It took a lot of open communication before and after our first time for us to know that this is the kind of thing we both wanted to experience together. For both of us this is about experiencing things together not about trying to satisfy one persons wants. Untill you two are clear with each other and on the same page I would not enter into this LS.

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she said something interesting the other night. She said, "I kinda wish we could go back to october 1st and just not talk about this swinging thing." I asked why, she said, "too stressful... isn't it?" I did a couple things, I thanked her for being honest, then I thanked her for her courage to be able to bring it up and I said, "no. I don't want to go back to October 1st. This is a transition to the positive for us and whether we choose to do it or not we'll be better for it."

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