Is there a stigma with success?

I have been wondering about something for awhile and have a hard time putting it into words but will do my best. In most endeavors in the world whether it be something like careers to athletics to gardening to hobbies, the people that have achieved the most success are looked up to and admired and people want to follow in their footsteps and want to be like them.

 

In swinging it seems to the opposite. In swinging there seems to be a sense of once you have become "too successful" you start to be looked down on and feared and looked upon with disdain.

 

For instance there was a post in the last day or two where someone said they were contacted by a nice and attractive couple but this couple had to many certifications and so they told this couple that they were "too experienced" for their liking. In person we have talked to people at clubs that look down on other people because the other people are "too slutty" or "get around too much."

 

In baseball if someone is a good batter he is known as a slugger or a home run hitter and is admired. If a swinger is equally successful he/she/they were the title of "slutty" or "gets around too much," and is looked down on and avoided.

 

I admit my own prejudices as well and have encountered people that seem nice in person but I look at their profile pics and see an endless sea of naked bodies and I am turned off by that. I can only assume there are some others see me/us in the same light.

 

So I guess I'll pose these questions, if you are a newer or consider yourself a less experienced swinger, do you view more seasoned and experienced swingers with suspicion or distrust if not actual disdain? Do you look down on or have some level of fear if someone appears to be more "active" than what you think they should?

 

Likewise if you are a more seasoned and experienced swinger have you ever had someone react with fear or distrust of you do to your experiences? Have you ever had someone appear to be intimidated by you or appear to be turned off do to your level of "success?" whether that level of success is real or perceived?

 

What are your thoughts?

Very interesting question !

 

I believe there is a stigma, to a certain degree, for those who have extensively more experience compared to those who don't.

 

Ted and I fall in the "uber-slutty" category. However, we're not ashamed of it. I don't recall anyone ever reacting in fear, distrust or being intimidated by our experience...they usually ask a lot of questions when they find out about our experience level. There may have been those that were afraid, distrustful or intimidated but...we obviously haven't let it bother us since I can't remember anyone ever saying to us..."Sorry, you two have way too much experience for us".

 

The thing to remember is that there will always be someone with more experience and there will always be someone with less...what others think of you isn't what matters, it's how you think of yourself that matters.

 

I suppose that everyone has their cut-off line of when someone has had too many partners for their comfort...I'm sure Ted and I have more than passed that cut-off line for some but, we haven't even come close for others. The important thing is the cut-off line for ourselves, which...I'm not really sure there is one.

 

Until the day comes that Ted tells me..."Baby, I think that's enough" and/or I tell him the same thing...we're really not going to worry about what others think of us.

 

We're always going to be too slutty for some and not slutty enough for others but, as long as we're slutty enough for each other, that's all the matters.

 

 

Teresa

Success? I do not view swinging as an aspiration. It is an activity, an interest, a pastime, a lifestyle or, as you suggest, a hobby.

 

My wife and I have never, even when our swinging activity was beginning, been put off by people we knew to be or perceive as being active. It will be interesting to see what others say.

 

~Michael

My wife and I found out recently that we have "been with" two couples. We know these two couples, hang out at parties with them but haven't "been with" them.

 

My point is that we need to be careful with information we receive...it may not be true.

 

We don't care about experience or batting averages...are they attractive to us, do we like them, do they like us?...these are the things we concern ourselves with.

 

It makes me wonder if others are saying they've "been with" us and if people may think we're "too successful"?

 

We shall see.

 

Trace

There are those who make the assumption that if a couple is "successful," then they are "bedpost notchers," and they begin to ascribe negative attributes to them, without even knowing them. I think that gorgeous women in the lifestyle have similar problems. Some people will see them and presume them to be unattainable, haughty, etc., especially if the woman is quiet. The single male can get the bad rap based on his status alone. There is an unending list of negative assumptions that people make about others based on outward appearances.

 

The real question to me is, to what extent do we allow negative assumptions to impact our own behavior?

 

With my husband I sometimes find myself asking the question, what will they think? He inevitably points me in the direction of, "what is the importance of what they think?"

 

In swinging there seems to be a sense of once you have become "too successfull" you start to be looked down on and feared and looked upon with disdain.

How much a person swings does play a role in whether I am interested in them. There is a point where too much is unappealing to me.

 

When you say “too successful” I believe you are equating success to playing a lot and with many different people. So my reply is based on this definition of success.

 

As an experienced swinger, I don’t gravitate toward people who play a lot and with many people. My reason is that, just as with anything in life, too much is not a good thing to me, e.g., alcohol consumption, overeating, excessive spending that puts people in debt, to name a few. These are habits that don’t attract me to people. When I see people who need something to the point of habitual overindulgence I am not drawn to those people. For this reason, if I see swingers who appear to swing every week or are involved in swinging activities (even attending clubs weekly) I see that activity as too close to addiction rather than a social activity they include in their life now and then. I see them as people whose need to have sex with others likely outweights good judgement.

 

I understand that it can be hard to know how often people play and how many people they play with, but there is a point where—whether factual or not—all the signs point to high activity players. My deciding factors are based on how many certifications, how often they post that they will be at a club/party, how often they post looking for a hook-up within hours (liason feature on some ad sites), their forum posting history (flirting style, referring to a good time they had with people, never complaining about not finding people to play with), chat room activity, their profile language, profile pictures showing many pics with other people and group play pictures that are regularly updated with new play pics, and what I observe when seeing them at the club. All of these things add up to forming my opinion.

 

Likewise if you are a more seasoned and experienced swinger have you ever had someone react with fear or distrust of you do to your experiences? Have you ever had someone appear to be intimidated by you or appear to be turned off do to your level of "success?" whether that level of success is real or percieved?

I don’t think anyone ever feels we play often or with many people; we don’t give off signs of being busy swingers. We have been contacted by newbies, longtime swingers, as well as those who I am certain play a lot.

 

LM

There might be a stigma.....We might care what our "friends" think.. but we never give a fuck what "they" think...

If I'm learning to box, I don't want to get in the ring with someone who is 42-2. I'd rather learn from a bout with someone 3-0.

Interesting question, and some thought provoking answers so far.

 

One of the things that made me think was Likeminds321 statement regarding a person attending clubs regularly. We are experienced swingers, but because we are pretty picky regarding who we will play with, we really don't play that often compared to a lot of swingers we know. Yet, because we go to the clubs often, on average probably 3-4 times a month, we have encountered a number of folks that think we play a lot more than we do.

 

We have also had folks tell us that they wouldn't play with us because we were to experienced for them. This does not bother us though, as we consider anyone that would make that type of judgment about us probably would not be compatible with us anyway. So far at least, all the folks we have met that said something like this had numerous other "red flag" issues that convinced us that they would be to much drama for us.

 

So at least based on what we have seen, while their may be a stigma attached to being experienced by a few singers, both new and experienced, I don't think it has ever made any difference to us, or has prevented us from playing with anyone.

Whether it's related to swinging or your professional life the definition of success is relative. To some being successful in the professional world is measured by how much you make, or how high up the ladder you sit at your corporation. For others it is measured by how happy they are with their life in general, including their professional life. The same goes for swinging. I don't view the definition of being a sucessful swinger as someone who has been with an unlimited number of people. Any of us could be that "successful". I define success when it comes to swinging as enjoying what (and who) you are doing. For some this may mean swinging every week with different people every time. For others it may mean going out and screwing as many different people as possible without any care for who they were. For others it's just having fun and the number of sex partners isn't an issue. We fall in the latter segment.

 

If you define it as those who have been "uber slutty" I would also fall into that category at various times. I've had gangbangs, orgies, etc. I can't recall the names or how many people I've been with. And many of my best swinging friends fit into this same category. But there is one big difference between them (and myself) and those that would fall on the other side of the line as people that I would look at and be turned off by their "experience level". The difference is simply in the way they represent themselves.

 

If a person's profile is filled with nothing but their conquests and full of naked pictures of them with random orgy after random orgy, then I'm going to be a bit turned off. The reason for this is that they are representing themselves as someone who doesn't care WHO they are with and is not the least bit discriminite in the choosing of their partners. That may not be the truth of who they are, but that is how they have displayed themselves. I've met people like this in real life too, guys that would literally stick their dick in any hole that would let them (and women who were the same). I'm turned off just the same by them in real life as I am in profiles.

 

Many of my friends in the lifestyle have had sex with many numbers of others during their time in swinging, but unless you were there you wouldn't have known about it. They are discrete and discriminate in who they choose to play with.

But there is one big difference between them (and myself) and those that would fall on the other side of the line as people that I would look at and be turned off by their "experience level". The difference is simply in the way they represent themselves.

 

If a person's profile is filled with nothing but their conquests and full of naked pictures of them with random orgy after random orgy, then I'm going to be a bit turned off. The reason for this is that they are representing themselves as someone who doesn't care WHO they are with and is not the least bit discriminite in the choosing of their partners.

 

This is a great point and clarifies what I've been thinking since I first read this question. We have seen some profiles that appeared to be all about numbers and they were very unattractive because it seems desperate!

 

I hope we never automatically turn down someone for being too experienced, but instead respond to the couple or person individually!

Thank you for all your thoughts and insights. This is kind of an interesting topic for a number of reasons. In some ways it is a concept that I am somewhat torn about on a couple of different levels.

 

I too have looked at profiles and seen pics of mass orgys with different faces every week and have gone "eeewww" and then swore we would never associate with "those people" but then when we have met "those people" in person at a club or function, it turns out that they are attractive and personable and pleasant. And while they may have fucked hundreds they have a way of making you feel appreciated and liked and not at all like you are just a number or just a cock/pussy.

 

While I am still turned off, I do see the contradiction taking place here. There are people that are attractive and pleasant and respectfull and because of those traits people want to be with them and do enjoy their company. So yes, do to their characteristics they have been "successfull"

 

BUT I also see them as the victims of their own success in that after a certain point people turn away from them thinking that they are too slutty or too indescriminate or that people have the perception that "they don't care who they fuck".

 

I also have concerns that none of us are truly safe from this mentality. All of us are at risk of being perceived as "those people" the more we are seen regardless of how many or how few we invite into our beds.

 

It just seems a little catch-22 to me. We strive to look good, learn the ropes and learn to play the game well but then when we get to a certain level of competence and begin to reep the rewards of our efforts, then people start getting turned off and thinking negative of us because we are accomplishing what we all set out to accomplish in the first place.

 

Anyone else see the contradiction here?

Yes, but then I quickly come to the conclusion that I don't want to be with anyone who can't see beyond it.

 

It just seems a little catch-22 to me. We strive to look good, learn the ropes and learn to play the game well but then when we get to a certain level of competence and begin to reep the rewards of our efforts, then people start getting turned off and thinking negative of us because we are accomplishing what we all set out to accomplish in the first place.

 

Anyone else see the contradiction here?

Yes, I see the contradiction. I think of it as the "too familiar and you lose interest" aspect of swinging that is often spoke of. This usually occurs when people have played together or gotten to know each other better; the interest in playing wears off. But this can also happen when you've never played or met a couple. If people become too familiar with you through your online persona on your ad site - where people think they know you - it can work against you too.

 

If you look too successful (however you describe success) people can think you wouldn't be interested in them...you wouldn't have time in your schedule for them or you have so many people knocking at your door that they wouldn't make it to the top of your interest list. People can be more hesitant to write to couples or approach them at a club if they are percieved to be successful.

 

If we term "success" as strictly playing often and indiscriminantly, that tends to turn more people off than on, so maybe these "uber slutty" people aren't fucking as much as everyone thinks, or maybe a lot of other people are fuck-a-lots and just keep it hidden.

 

It boils down to finding people who seek what you seek. If you're sending a confusing message about who you are or how you play it can get in your way.

 

I've come to the conclusion that revealing less about ourselves has given us more opportunities with swingers.

 

LM

I also have concerns that none of us are truly safe from this mentality. All of us are at risk of being perceived as "those people" the more we are seen regardless of how many or how few we invite into our beds.

 

It just seems a little catch-22 to me. We strive to look good, learn the ropes and learn to play the game well but then when we get to a certain level of competence and begin to reep the rewards of our efforts, then people start getting turned off and thinking negative of us because we are accomplishing what we all set out to accomplish in the first place.

 

Anyone else see the contradiction here?

 

I can see what you are getting at. I guess that's where my question of what makes a successful swinger comes from. Those of who do get out and about, try to visit various clubs/socials and are active with our personal ads may be doing ourselves a disservice to some extent. Just based on seeing us out and about so much some may assume we are those overly active swingers who play with everyone.

 

In actuality, we go out a lot but play with few. However, there are those who think we are much more active than we are because we get to various clubs both local and within a couple of hours and at the same time we try to arrange group events locally. I have a feeling that most any club owner/host probably also falls into this category. There was a thread here recently about how "club owners are people too", and I think that is important to remember. Just because people get out and about a lot, does not in any way mean they are "getting it on" a lot.

Just based on seeing us out and about so much some may assume we are those overly active swingers who play with everyone.

 

Ah but where is the line between "active" and "overly active"? I think that's the question.

 

When we went to a club for the first time, we saw an absolutely stunning woman wearing a micro mini (it didn't cover even 1/2 her butt), an open backed top and stilettos. We couldn't take our eyes off her but we didn't approach her and neither did most people.

 

Is this because she seemed out of our league or because she looked so comfortable dressed like that we assumed she was a slut? Both and neither!

 

Honestly, swinging can sometimes remind me of junior high. You didn't want to be the tart all the boys talked about, but you also didn't want to be the girl no one had ever kissed. Sexuality (and the presentation of sexuality) is so ridiculously fraught!

Is this because she seemed out of our league or because she looked so comfortable dressed like that we assumed she was a slut? Both and neither!

 

Honestly, swinging can sometimes remind me of junior high. You didn't want to be the tart all the boys talked about, but you also didn't want to be the girl no one had ever kissed. Sexuality (and the presentation of sexuality) is so ridiculously fraught!

 

Isn't that the truth!

 

But, there's more to it. What I've found is that the times I go to the clubs dressed more slutty or sexy (whatever you want to call it), I get more looks and it gives me more opportunities. If I see someone looking that I think I'd like to know more, I let them know I see them and I return the look, and then either give them an opportunity for an opening, or I just take the opportunity myself. It's all in the attitude. On the other side of the coin, if a woman is dressed provocatively and seems comfortable in it, but at the same times doesn't seem to give people the time of day when they look at her, they are going to think it's not worth approaching her. It doesn't matter how hot you are, or how sexy you are dressed, you can't sit back and wait for everyone to come to you. You have to let them know you are open to be approached and/or do the approaching yourself.

This thread is really interesting. It puts me in mind of two quotes:

 

"Fail, and your friends feel superior. Succeed, and they feel resentful." -- Mason Cooley

 

"When driving on the highway, everyone going slower than you is an idiot. Everyone going faster is an asshole". -- George Carlin

 

I have thought about this subject a little more since Mr. Fuse and I have gained more experience (some would say, "success"). I think if you are in the lifestyle for long enough, it is inevitable that the number of playmates you will have had will get to be higher than you might have thought when you started out. I think it is interesting how we can pass judgment on each other based on numbers alone.

 

I guess "success", within the context of this thread, means having a high number of play partners. But like others have pointed out, everything is relative. Personally, I wouldn't judge someone negatively based on numbers. I would think they are incompatible if they don't care who they are with. That would apply whether the couple had had one previous play encounter, or 500.

 

But yes, I think there is a stigma on some couples if others think they have been with a lot of people. Like others have said though, "people in general" often get the wrong idea based on certifications. We have two certifications, but never played with either couple who certified us, beyond a little kissing with one of them. Pictures of orgies that change every week are another thing. That would tend to turn me off a bit, but more as a matter of taste than as a matter of sluttiness.

My first problem with the original question posed is how to define "success" with swinging. For us, it's not how many people we hook up with, or how often we go out. It's how much fun we (and our partners) have when we do hook up or go out.

 

But, going along with the swinging success=lots of partners/play . . . I would have to agree there seems to be something of a stigma attached to those who do "party" a lot, or are perceived to do so.

 

I can't say if anyone's rejected us because of how much "action" we get or don't. And I really don't give a rat's a$$. If someone's not interested in us for whatever reason, it's their choice. That's not something we particularly think about when we're deciding whether or not to play with someone.

 

=)

One of the problems that we had when we first started out last April was over-analyzing just about everything! We would look at a couple with a lot of certs, or who are self-admitted "sluts" and think they were not for us. Now our attitude is, if there is attraction and all parties are willing, let's give it a shot! Worst case is we don't have much fun or don't click sexually. Next!

I have a feeling that we were turned down by a couple because they thought we were too active for them- not said outright, but implied in the sort of questions and comments he makes when we run into him at the club. Mind you, the kissoff came after we'd made pretty solid plans to play, awesome chemistry all 4 ways in an off-premise club setting, then the email saying there wasn't the spark. So I think that they'd got scared off by our supposed excessive playing. Oh well. Three days after the email we were off to our regular house party where I was kept busy the entire night. Gee.... maybe they were right

It's all about quality and not quantity, as to who you swing with, swap mates, play and have intercourse with. "Success' as defined in other endeavors of life does not mean a whole lot when it comes to swinging as far as we are concerned.

 

We prefer to play with, and, exchange partners for sexual intercourse with couples that are compatible and on same wavelength as we are. We don'd give a hoot about their track record, how many couples they have been with and fucked.

 

If a couple brags, or, is overbearing and condescending we move on and say thanks but no thanks.

One of the problems that we had when we first started out last April was over-analyzing just about everything! We would look at a couple with a lot of certs, or who are self-admitted "sluts" and think they were not for us. Now our attitude is, if there is attraction and all parties are willing, let's give it a shot! Worst case is we don't have much fun or don't click sexually. Next!

 

There is beauty in the practical approach!

Experience levels never really come in to play with us as we tend to meet our playmates at dances, clubs, or adult vacations. It's not like we ask others how many partners they've had We've certainly never turned a couple down that we were attracted to because of their "successfulness". If anything, the successful ones tend to be more fun to play with as they don't have the usual rules and drama many newbies have.

 

And I'm sure most would consider us an experienced couple

 

Brett

I don't think we make many decisions based on how "successful" a couple or play partner might happen to be. We made a decision long ago not to accept certifications or validations and we don't give them usually either. In addition to that, if we happen to take any pictures of our play sessions, those are for our personal viewing pleasure only. We would not put any of those pictures into one of our profiles.

 

So with that in mind, most are not going to usually know how "successful" we are or aren't. I personally have never understood the whole "We are not looking for bed notchers, or bed hoppers or whatever." I mean, for the most part, aren't well all here to meet new people and then have sex?? If you are in this Lifestyle for any good length of time, I think you are going to be with a fair number of folks. Since I am not looking for a life partner (already found that!) I don't care if my play partners have been with one person or more than I can count.

 

-Van