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hotwifemail
05-02-2006, 10:51 PM
Ok. This is a tough one. We have been kicking around swinging for 4 years. We have gone to 3 parties. The first two weren't for us. The last, we fit in well. Now, my wife is ready to dive in. Now I got some tough, crude questions.

And they surround VD.

The general din is everyone plays safe. But what is safe? You can get herpies from kissing. And who likes sex without a little oral for the ladies? Who likes oral with a dental dam? and who likes to blow a rubber bannana? Isn't there a lot of warts, sores, and bumps being transferred during these parties?

Be honest. Who knows someone who has caught something and how?

I REALLY want to be proved wrong.

Spoomonkey
05-03-2006, 06:26 AM
Isn't there a lot of warts, sores, and bumps being transferred during these parties?

Actually - not really...

Swingers tend to be very cautious when it comes to safe(r) sex. Hey - we don't want VD just as much as you don't want VD. We are cautious with our playmates and use condoms with most. You have to use your Spidey sense on people - and if they seem unsafe, they probably are...

You can also use your eyes. Warts, sores and bumps? We consider those clues :lol:

When we were last tested, I let the doctor know what we were into. She basically said that what we were doing (our approach) was good and that we needed to just keep doing what we're doing. And she worked in a VD clinic - so I think she knew her stuff.

And, yes, we are clean...

Another thing to keep in mind is that swingers typically don't want to expose each other to diseases they may have. Do a search for herpes here and you'll find information of "herpes positive" swingers who are looking to swing with others who are herpes positive. They aren't out spreading it around.

Now - is it possible to catch a disease at a swing club/event?

Of course it is...

Is it likely?

Not really. People think this stuff is crawling around everywhere. Its not. So relax, play safe, choose your playmates carefully and enjoy.

For the record - after three years in - we do not know anyone personally who has caught VD from swinging; and this in an area where hepatitis was recently the big scare in the gay community.

We're a smart group ;)

Spoomonkey

JM153
05-03-2006, 07:46 AM
Thanks Hotwife for posing the question. It is one that we are interested in as well. One of our rules is condom for intercourse required. Recently, we have attended some house parties with experienced swingers (from different groups) and were surprised to learn that none of them routinely use condoms at all. When Ms JM tells the men they will have to use a condom, they reluctantly agree. I have had some push back form the women, but not as much as Ms JM has from the men. Of course I understand the preference - bareback is always more pleasurable - but have been surprised that these experience swingers are not more concerned.

We have tried to find reliable information on the relative risks in the heterosexual world and have not found much. It has been our conclusion that in order of risks anal is the most risky and kissing is the least. The woman is at greater risk than the man because she has more exposed mucus tissue than the man and most (certainly HIV) STDs are transmitted through the mucus tissue. Based on our reading we have decided -no anal at all - condom with intercourse - no external protection (we still make a subjective judgment) for all other sex play.

I hope others will contribute to this thread. Maybe, someone with medical knowledge can help us out with reliable information on the risks we are or are not taking. Thanks again for asking.

Mr. JM

good times
05-03-2006, 02:39 PM
I agree with Spoomonkey, especially in regards to the fact that we too have yet to meet enyone in the lifestyle who caught an std while playing with someone. My reasearch, on the internet and at the library has resulted in our conclusion that for the types of std's we may run into in the lifestyle condoms are not very effective (mainly herpes and hpv). So we don't use condoms unless requested. That doesn't mean we take no precautions at all though. We don't do anal play at all and we only play with couples. Those two things alone puts us in a very low risk demographic group, from our research low enough that the risk of catching something is a low concern for us. We also use our eyes ears and noses, if it looks sounds or smells questionable, we don't go there.

hotwifemail
05-03-2006, 07:58 PM
Thanks all.

Any comments about oral, my fav?

(m2f)

shigrl269
05-04-2006, 09:30 AM
Hi,
New to this, a big concern, yes has beed STD's. It;s good to her others concerns/advice. Thanks!

hotwifemail
05-04-2006, 08:49 PM
Silence: Deafening

Spoomonkey
05-04-2006, 08:58 PM
Silence: Deafening

More like - "Topic: Talked To Death"

Check out this (http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24909), this (http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24909), this (http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24564), and this (http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23434)...

Just to name a few...

Often times, we see a question that has been discussed and we move on to one that hasn't. Sometimes answers don't come as quickly as we'd like. But - until folks get around to answering you here, these links will give you plenty ot read on the subject.

Good stuff...

For us - we do not use condoms with oral and feel very comfortable with that decision.

Spoomonkey

hotwifemail
05-04-2006, 09:54 PM
Forgive me spooge monkey. I did read the other posts, it's just hard to get my head around. I can't find any statistics to establish the risk is significantly less. For us straight, rubber wearin folk, it seems like herpes is the uncurable menace, which occurs on people's mouths, which you generally kiss, or snuggle against your genitials, so germies can hop.

So, I for one balance risks by looking at statistics. So, how frequent is this menace.

1 in 4, maybe 1 in 5.

So, safely, about 1 person in any couple to couple adventure (or, more likely, 2 people in every 2 couple to couple adventures).

I see the benefits of swinging. I think it is most likely good for long lasting stable marriages. Divorce sucks. And my wife and I are horn dogs to the death.

If we got VD, I think it might not be so nice. For one think, I live a very stressful life and would end up looking like my lips were boiling. For another, although she is driving the ship right now, I can see a lot of resentment for me bringing this up.

We feel like we are home.

We are scared shitless.

We are trying to resolve these feelings.

1 in 4.

1 in 4.

And nobody here is speaking up, saying "I got VD swining, and this is what I did"

Hard to swallow, pardon the bun. facelick

Spoomonkey
05-04-2006, 10:04 PM
And nobody here is speaking up, saying "I got VD swining, and this is what I did"

I am sure if someone had, someone would have spoken up...

Like I wrote above, I don't know anyone who has contracted VD from swinging. Could it happen? Yes... And the truth is, you can catch herpes with a rubber just like you can catch it without... The risks of swinging are what they are - you expose yourself to more risk of STDs than you would through monogamy...

Still - the swinger world is pretty smart. And no one here wants to catch something from anyone else. We take precautions and make our play as safe as we can while still allowing for the enjoyment of it. Can we completely eliminate STDs? No. Can anyone give you accurate statistics? No - since the idea of "accurate statistics" is in itself an oxymoron. But, considering the fact that we have played with a fair number of folks and have talked to a fair number more - we can say that we have yet to hear any horror stories...

To us - that is pretty comforting.

We must all be doing something right ;)

Spoomonkey

PS - I apologize if my prior post came across as a little "smart ass". I did not mean it that way.

girlsnboys
05-04-2006, 10:17 PM
Dear hotwifemale, when you walk out the door in the morning, you're at risk, when you cross the street you're taking a risk, when you swing you're taking a risk. There is a reason why swingers screen eachother, and its a small community even in the big cities, and for good reason: you get to know your parnters, ask questions and have sex in well lit areas. Nothing is 100% safe, and if you're really twisted up about it, just don't swing at all, thats the safest next to complete abstinence.

hotwifemail
05-04-2006, 10:40 PM
My wife worries about our kids being kidnapped and truckers without the right kind of licences. She doesn't worry much about running around the LA freeways with our kids in the back of the car. Why? It seems safe. I, on the underhand, am a bit stochastic in my reasoning. Everything should be assessed in terms of risk. If the risk is not that great, wonderful, count me in. But if the risk is, maybe, 10% chance of catching something even when rubbers are used, that is huge.

I am not tweaking, just trying to get as much info as possible before making an informed choice.

Looks like there is very little info out there about oral, and how safe or unsafe it is. Most that talk about it not being safe are from the christian right obsessing about teenagers.

Here is a comfortable alternative position that is worth a read:

http://www.viceland.com/issues/v11n4/htdocs/big.php

TLO7777
05-05-2006, 12:28 AM
Sure, the position of that article is "comforting" for those that don't really want to face the issue, but it's also uneducated and ignores medical realities.

Yes, the risk is by far the greatest when there are visible sores, but herpes absolutely can be transmitted when there are no visible signs whatsoever.

There are indeed swingers that have contracted STD's and a few have been courageous enough to admit it openly here on the forum. (http://www.swingersboard.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1332&highlight=contracted+herpes)

The bottom line is that you simply need to decide whether the rewards outweigh the risks and act accordingly.

Once you've done that you can manage the risks further by swinging with those couples that share your own ideas about what risks are reasonable and take the same measure of precaution that you do with their other partners.

The only truly risk free way to swing is to find others that are looking for an exclusive swinging arrangement, are willing to share tests with you, and can be trusted not to play outside of this relationship.

I have heard of such things, but it's definitely a rare occurence and leaves out much of the fun that most swingers seem to be after.

I find the idea of a small group of perhaps 3-6 couples that exclusively play with one another and get tested regularly quite appealing. Even so, the more people you involve the greater the risk because there are that many more individuals that can "break" the agreement and put the entire group at risk.

Ah well, it's a nice utopian fantasy anyway. :lol:

Dante

JM153
05-05-2006, 08:33 AM
Your concern, HotWife, about Herpes although justified may be overblown. I don't have the statistics you crave, but there is a lot you can do to lessen the risk. To begin with don't play if YOU have an open sore. Typically Herpes is transmitted when the recipiant has an opening that allows the the virus into the blood stream. You could place it on unbroken skin and it is not going to get you. As you no doubt know there is a type that is associated with the mouth and is quite common. I have a friend who has that type and from time to time he gets what appears to be a cold sore. He didn't get it from sex - he got it when he was a kid and prior to becoming sexually active. Herpes is more of a nuisance then it is a problem by itself. It is incuarable but esily treated and most infected people know what their symptoms are so if they want they can avoid exposing others. Now, not always because they can be contagous and not know it. But usually they can feel an outbreak coming on. And of couse, they are not contagous all the time. So, bottom line if there are no visable sores or red places, the play partner is responsible, and you do not have any open wounds, your chance of contracting Herpes are very low. And a condom does prevent it provided you put it on early enough. That is before play begins.

Our concern is not a non life threatening STD. Herpes would be a bad inconvenience, but it by itelf will not kill us. HIV can. We are more concerned about the risk of HIV and like you I can't find any good sttistics on the risks with heterosexual partners who have no oterher high risk activity.
If you find some good stats, please post them.
JM

JM153
05-05-2006, 08:48 AM
By the way Spoo, I had not seen the link you posted in another thread at the time I wrote the last post. Do you know how recent this chart http://www.dph.sf.ca.us/sfcityclinic/stdbasics/stdchart.asp is? It is very interesting.
JM

TLO7777
05-05-2006, 09:43 AM
Typically Herpes is transmitted when the recipiant has an opening that allows the the virus into the blood stream. You could place it on unbroken skin and it is not going to get you.

It is exactly this type of mis-information that CAUSES the spread of Herpes and many other STDs. Know your medical facts before you decide to "educate" others. :nono:

The unbroken soft moist tissue of the mouth and genitals is all that is needed to transmit the virus. If it required broken skin or an open sore then herpes would be as uncommon as HIV and not nearly as widespread.

From the San Francisco City Clinic (http://www.dph.sf.ca.us/sfcityclinic/stdbasics/herpes.asp) website:

Herpes is transmitted from person to person via direct skin-to-skin contact during oral, anal and vaginal sex.

From the National Institute of Allergies and Infectious Disease (http://www.niaid.nih.gov/factsheets/stdherp.htm) factsheet:

Most people get genital herpes by having sex with someone who is shedding the herpes virus either during an outbreak or during a period with no symptoms.

You can transmit herpes through close contact other than sexual intercourse, through oral sex or close skin-to-skin contact, for example.

From the NIAID Herpevac FAQ (http://www.niaid.nih.gov/dmid/stds/herpevac/about_herpes.htm):

Herpes can be transmitted through sexual contact during asymptomatic viral shedding or times when there are no obvious symptoms. Herpes is often passed by people who do not know they have herpes.

Medical studies suggest that up to 70% of herpes is transmitted during asymptomatic viral shedding when there are NO VISIBLE SYMPTOMS.

If you want to read the studies yourself seek out the following medical journal articles:

Mertz GJ, Benedetti J, Ashley R, Selke SA, Corey L. Risk factors for the sexual transmission of genital herpes. Ann Intern Med. 1992;116:197-202.

Wald A, Zeh J, Selke S, Ashley RL, Corey L. Virologic characteristics of subclinical and symptomatic genital herpes infections. N Engl J Med. 1995;333:770-775.

Wald A, Zeh J, Selke S, et al. Reactivation of genital herpes simplex virus type 2 infection in asymptomatic seropositive persons. N Engl J Med. 2000;342:844-850.

You can't responsibly manage risk if you don't even know the facts.

Dante

graygo98
05-05-2006, 10:27 AM
Our concern is not a non life threatening STD. Herpes would be a bad inconvenience, but it by itelf will not kill us. HIV can. We are more concerned about the risk of HIV and like you I can't find any good sttistics on the risks with heterosexual partners who have no oterher high risk activity.
If you find some good stats, please post them.
JM

This study suggests the risk is very low, something like 9 times in 10,000. And, the study looked at couples where one party was infected and there was regular sex. Multifply that percentage by the odds of your play partner having HIV in the first place, which is even smaller, and you end up with something that seems pretty low odds.

http://www.ucsf.edu/daybreak/1997/08/826_aids.htm

OttawaCuple
05-05-2006, 10:44 AM
Be honest. Who knows someone who has caught something and how?I caught something and I was a swinger, but I didn't catch it while swinging ... here's my story:

I was an active swinger for three years before I met my husband. I only played with other swingers from my local on-premises club. As was the norm at my club, condoms were used for all penis-vagina activities, but penis-mouth and mouth-vagina activities were bareback. I did not get any diseases during that time (had frequent STD testing to be sure).

I stopped swinging at the club about a year before I met my husband, but during that time I did have a polyamorous relationship with a couple I'd met at the club but who'd stopped playing with new playmates about the time that I met them. As a threesome, we played with a small, select group of also-former club swingers. We did everything bareback. I did not get any diseases during that time.

About 2 months before meeting my future husband, I broke off the polyamorous relationship, cutting all ties with them and their playmates.

When I met my future husband, we started out using condoms, but questioned each other a lot about each other's history and decided we were both "safe". We started having unprotected sex.

Here's where it gets weird .... I've had sex with a LOT of people in my life and consider myself quite knowledgeble about STDs. I'd even been in numerous times for testing and was given pamphlets ad-nauseum about STDs and how to protect yourself. I knew that there were SOME risks associated with swinging and was pleased to be able to say I'd gone thru that and safely out the other side.

In all that time and with all the information I was given and all the questions the STD testing facility people asked me, NO ONE TOLD ME YOU COULD GET GENITAL HEPRES FROM A MAN WHO HAD COLD SORES. AND EVEN MY FUTURE HUSBAND, WHO'D HAD COLD SORES EVERY WINTER OF HIS LIFE DIDN'T KNOW IT EITHER.

So there we were, that first winter together, being careful not to kiss when he'd get a cold sore, but with him giving me oral whether he had an outbreak or not, feeling there was no way he was putting me at risk!!

It was a huge shock, when, on Valentine's Day, I broke out in a MASSIVE FIRST OUTBREAK OF GENITAL HERPES. Nice present, hunh!!

I went to my doctor immediately and was obviously surprised to find out getting genital herpes from a person who has oral herpes is VERY common. And I wondered how many times while swinging I'd been on the receiving end of bareback oral sex with a person who got cold sores, but like my husband, thought there was no danger of transmitting the virus to the genitals.

So now my husband and I are considering becoming swingers together and we have to deal with the issue of our herpes. We have joined a swingers with herpes Yahoo group (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Herpes_Swingers) and are hoping, when we DO decide to play with others, that we can find compatible playmates who are also herpes positive so we don't risk infecting anyone else.

CUZ YOU ALL KNOW THAT HERPES CAN BE TRANSFERRED EVEN WHEN THERE ARE NO ACTIVE HERPES SORES OR OPEN CUTS, RIGHT?!!!!!


Dear hotwifemale, when you walk out the door in the morning, you're at risk, when you cross the street you're taking a risk, when you swing you're taking a risk. There is a reason why swingers screen eachother, and its a small community even in the big cities, and for good reason: you get to know your parnters, ask questions and have sex in well lit areas. Nothing is 100% safe, and if you're really twisted up about it, just don't swing at all, thats the safest next to complete abstinence. Dito

MrsOttawaCuple

luvinit
05-05-2006, 08:41 PM
I caught herpes from the first couple I played with, they had been married 25 years, thought I was totally safe since they hadnt been with anyone else, turns out she lied and knew she had it. I would never trust anyone again. Its easy, just assume everyone has it.

The next couple we were going to play with we told we had herpes, they then admitted they had it to. Would they have played with us without telling us if we hadnt brought it up? I think so.

The first couple we communicated with on SwingLifeStyle blocked us as soon as we said we had herpes. I know people would lie about having herpes because its a lot easier then admitting it.

hotwifemail
05-06-2006, 10:47 AM
That is pretty cool. I wonder what the source of the stats are.

"*** Unprotected anal sex is a very high risk activity for a bottom, much more so than for a top. The risk of HIV transmission to a bottom during unprotected anal sex is 15 in 1,000 versus 3 in 10,000 from a bottom to a top."


That settles it. I won't be on the receiving end of any more unprotected anal sex with strangers.

"Very rare". I like that. Has a nice ring to it. Lowered by dental hygene. Time to floss. I think we can live with all of that.

Thanks all for your comments here. I really appreciate it. I know newbies want to talk about the same stuff all the time, but each person comes at it from a little perspective.