Am I alone in thinking that "friends first" doesn't make sense?

Ok, so I have finished reading a great post by Uomo....but one question keeps coming up....am I alone in this thought. This is the one part that I keep heating over and over friends first. So I'm gonna quote from his post about it and what I feel under that. Just curious if any feel the same as I do.

Quote

Uomo wrote....

Before anybody is going to consider you for anything intimate, they have to like you as a person. Now I could be wrong on this (and I am certain exceptions exist) … but the first thing most swinging couples want to know is: Do I like you? If I do … then maybe something will come of it. Or maybe it won’t. But if you go into it with the attitude (and intention of) shacking up with the guy’s wife … they will see right through you … and it will never happen. You have to be genuine. I don’t mean genuine as a “tactic for scoring.” I mean genuinely genuine. That’s why I think “Friends with Benefits” is spot on. You have to be “Friends” first.

my reply....

I wonder how many swingers take this view or if maybe I just don't belong here. I share most of the ideas from the original post except for this part. I always hear separate sex from love with swinging...and that's how I feel. Now do not get me wrong just because I want to play with you does not mean we cannot have idle chit chat....but to me a friend is someone who is always there...I love my friends. It is possible that maybe I don't use the term friend as lightly as most...if you are my friend I will go to hell and back for you. I don't have sex with friends because there is only one person who gets the complete friendship/love/sex package and that is my husband. So basically if I have sex with you it is just that, sex...doesn't mean I don't like you...and I will never lead anyone to believe that it is anything other than that. For me honesty is always the best policy even if it is sometimes a little harsh. To me being good friends and having sex is a nono. Maybe my term for "friends with benefits" should be "acquaintance with benefits".

So am I really alone in this line of thinking?

I think that it depends on who it is. Some people want true friends, some people want to just know that the person can grunt a few intelligible words, and there are those that are in between. You ask 20 different people and you are going to get 20 different answers.

Jenn

I don't think you are, as I said in my reply to Uomo, there are definitely those who want one night stands, or even repeat performances, but don't want the hassle or attachment that goes along with truly being friends with someone you swing with.

I personally look for friends because we tried that basic, random, get to "know" someone thru the internet and phone and meet up to possibly hookup, and we had a bad experience. Of course I realize that it was the people we were with and the actions that ensued, not that portion of swinging in and of itself, but we feel more comfortable being friends with whom we swing with. For instance, my hubby's best friend of 9 years is our #1 swing partner, and we're looking to hookup with a female friend of mine of the last 2 years that happens to be that "elusive single bi-female" there's a different friend possibly in the mix, but we won't get into that right now Anyway, like what has been said in the past "different strokes for different folks".

I think the portion of what he learned was that someone wants to know that they have more than just a body, that we do in fact enjoy the conversation, the dancing, or the hanging around rather than some random guy coming up and being like "Hi my name is Joe-Bob and I want to screw you like pigs in muck in the summertime!" We do in fact want to be seen as real people, not just hedonistic sex toys without feelings right? But for most people with the majority of their swing partners (from what I've seen and read) have the same or mostly the same attitude as you do. Acquaintances with Benefits.

But hey, I'm still fairly new to this wonderful world of swinging so this is just IMHO Surrender

I agree with Jenn, everybody is different. In our case we have sex with more people that we like for sex than we do with people we consider real friends. And while I would say we love our friends it is a totally different thing than the love we have for each other. We have found that it is pretty rare to become real good friends with the people we play with and in actively swinging for over 3 years have only met a few people through swinging that we would consider true friends. So, for us, if it was required that we be friends first we probably wouldn't be swinging as their are a lot of people we find sexually stimulating and fun to play with but don't have enough in common with to be friends beyond that. On the other hand, if we make the kind of friends that we enjoy outside the lifestyle and also enjoy playing with, that is fine with us too.

In reference to the quote of Uomo that you cite though, if we meet someone and just don't like them or mesh personality wise we won't be having sex with them. So I would say that it is true that I would have to like the person to have sex with them, that doesn't mean we are going to be best of friends though.

There are friends and then there are friends. While we can differentiate between love and sex, for us it would be highly unusual to have sex with people we didn't like. If all we were after was a simple orgasm, hell, that's what sex toys are for. But I think most would agree that personality plays a part in attraction. For us, a major part. It has nothing to do with whether or not they would make good life-mate material, and I could care less about someone schmoozing me with flowers and candy... But I can't help but be turned off by huge egos and the constant preening that goes with it, mean-spiritedness, lying, cheating, or just blain classless personalities. Life is just too short to voluntarily spend even one evening in the company of people whose company you don't enjoy. And I don't care if they look like supermodels.

Having sex with people you don't "click" with, just because they're physically attractive, doesn't feel right to us. It sort of feels like we're A) wasting time that we could be spending actually enjoying another couple's company, and B) a bit like we're using these other people, jerks though they may be. We don't like to feel like we've been used, so we're uncomfortable doing it to anyone else.

But I think most would agree that personality plays a part in attraction.

I completely agree...

We don't like to feel like we've been used.

Sometimes feeling used is fun...but I'm twisted and not ashamed to admit it. However I am brutally honest and would never lead anyone that I was "using" to believe it was anything else. Doesn't mean we cant talk or have dinner...or even enjoy non sexual time.

To me a friend is someone I know inside and out....someone I tell anything to. So while I'm not opposed to "nice shoes, wanna fuck?" I'm also not opposed to "hey, you are a really nice person, let's have dinner and see where it goes." To me tho either will probably never been a good friend because if you are not my husband and I will be playing with you there is a distance that must be kept so that attachments are not formed. I don't know if that makes me classless...honest...or somewhere in-between lol

deadparrot911 said:

Sometimes feeling used is fun...but I'm twisted and not ashamed to admit it.

I suppose. Not my cup of tea, but everyone has their own thing...

deadparrot911 said:

To me tho either will probably never been a good friend because if you are not my husband and I will be playing with you there is a distance that must be kept so that attachments are not formed. I don't know if that makes me classless...honest...or somewhere in-between lol

I guess maybe that's it. It depends on your comfort level. We're not lovey-dovey with our playmates; we have our own emotional barriers set up as well, and there are no doe-eyed looks, loving caresses or 'I love you's. Just like physical personal space, everyone has their emotional personal space. That crosses it for us. But while we don't want to know every detail of your personal life, nor do we want to get involved in it, we have no problem treating our playmates with the same level of consideration that we extend to our long-term friends. It's just that by mutual agreement, this friendship has an expiry date. As in, possibly the next day.

I get the funny feeling we're arguing the same point, deadparrot911.

I view a "friend" as someone I trust implicitly. Someone I would not be afraid to speak my mind to, be open and honest about my thoughts and feelings with or give the keys to my house. While we aren't "friends first" types we have made friends like this through swinging. Usually by means of sex first, that was fun, lets have dinner and things evolve from there. I never worry about there needing to be a distance because we have sex together. If I am willing to trust them with all of the other aspects of my life why not my husband. I think friends such as these are even more precious because they are the only friends that TRULY no us "inside and out". Our vanilla friends no nothing of our extra curricular activities.

So my question is deadparrot do your friends really know you inside and out?

I think you may be right Intuition. See I don't call many friend and I guess the idea that almost everyone here says friends first kinda freaks me out...by my definition of friend that's a line I won't cross and refuse to let anyone I talk to along these lines think I will. I feel if you are gonna swing honesty is essential both with your husband/partner and with any potential playmates. Once I call or look at someone as friend that is what they are until extreme circumstances rip that apart...not for a day a week or even a month.

It seems we only differ on how casual we are willing to be.

In reply to Mrs good times...yes. I am extremely honest with my friends. If I was with another couple one night a friend called and asked me what I was doing I'd tell them. I will give you the point that they haven't had sex with me...but they can ask me any sort of odd question..and do and I never hold back. I have no secrets from them....have they actually been inside me no...but with them I wear my heart on my sleeve and hold no details about my life from them (no matter how straight they are).

deadparrot911, you bring up an interesting point. The level of intimacy outside of sex is different for everybody. For us, our litmus test for having sex with you is we ask ourselves "if sex was not in the picture would we still be friends with these people/this person?" If the answer is yes then we're on for sex. If it is no, then it won't happen.

Because of this many of our playmates have also become good friends. Friends that we do stuff with outside of the lifestyle, too. We still separate love and sex very well. Like you said, there is only one person that gets the whole package of love/sex/friendship, and that is us. Others may get friendship or sex and friendship, but they will never get love. Maybe in this we are partially polyamorous. Hmmm. Many of our new friends we've met in the lifestyle are truly poly, but we haven't played with them for that reason, they are looking for something more than just a casual sexual relationship. But, we have so many other things in common that we have become good friends. In fact, I could call them "our tribe".

So there it is. Yes, we develop friendships with most we swing with, and we would go to hell and back for a couple of them, but not all. Just like in vanilla life I think there are different levels of friendship for us.

I have no secrets from them.

In this I think you are very lucky because most of our non-swinging friends would definately be opposed. We in fact lost, what we thought was a good, friendship because we told them we were swingers. This one of the reason I find that my friends that I have made in the lifestyle are really the only friends in which I can be 100% honest with therefore more cherished.

mrs good times said:

This one of the reason I find that my friends that I have made in the lifestyle are really the only friends in which I can be 100% honest with therefore more cherished.

It's too bad how this is, Mrs Good Times......but we find it the same way. Although we don't have what I'd call true friends in the lifestyle, just couples we consider friends that we see every few months. Our AFF ad states "not looking for long term friendships, but if it happens......great" We really don't want the baggage or complications that becoming true friends with playmates might bring.

So yes, Deadparrot, there are others like you

But I still think it would be cool to be open and honest and share some stories with our vanilla friends without freaking them out and ruining a true friendship

There are friends and then there are friends. While we can differentiate between love and sex, for us it would be highly unusual to have sex with people we didn't like.

Dito My main rule: I won't have sex with someone I wouldn't have as a friend. Doesn't mean we are friends, but definitely means we could be or might be.

I guess we are in between here. I have some good friends in the lifestyle that we play with , and there has been a time or two that we played and I can't remember their names.

I don't need you to be my friend to play, if we click and things are going well, then great. It just depends on the mood I am in and the situation. But I have found that sometimes having them as friends has caused more problems in the long run. I have some friends that we no longer play with because it just got to be too much, but we remained good friends. I also have some friends that we always have a good time together as friends and if the mood hits us then we play too and that has worked fine too.

Everyone is different, so I guess you just do what works for you.

I think I agree with you though I've read a number of posts that indicate some get together at they're homes for bar-b-q's, picknicks etc. We are not that way as a couple. As a matter of fact, now this may sound strange, we don't have any friends. Basically that's because we have so much family around us. Just like friends we call on one another for help when we need it and we all get together for holidays, birthdays much as "friends" do.

As for swinging? The wife never understood it until I told her that it is the one thing that she will be "totally" in charge of. That said, I know her way of thinking is the same as yours....."friends with benifits" and that's the end of it.

Just a sort of spice in our lives so to speak. Yes, we can get together for dinner, drinks, dancing or whatever; but I think we'd both feel really uncomfortable bringing home a "friend w/ benifits".

By the way, the reason for no friends? We're a retired military couple living in a small community with a LOT of family within two miles or less. Her folks live on the same road just a hundred yards away. What would they think of "friends" who stayed the night so often? May the Gods in heaven forbid.

I will preface my opinion with the fact that we are newbies so our experience is limited but my take on the friends thing is this: I want to play with people that I COULD be friends with, if we chose to..... right now its hard enough to make just play dates,never mind also trying to add another couple to our normal life! I just need to like them enough, have something in common with them that we could be friends if time and space allowed. And frankly, I'm more secure right now in the whole thing without my hubby getting too involved on a mental level with anyone.

We don't have to be BFF (best friends forever) with the people we play with, but most of the people we play with, we are friends. Some we're very casual friends, in the same way that you're friends with say, a co-worker, and others that are the come stay for the weekend or take a vacation together friends. We've played with people that I would call acquaintences, but it hasn't been nearly as fun, so we don't do it anymore.

Pepper

We too have lost some friends when they found out that we was in the lifestyle, and we have made some really good friends with some that are in the lifestyle. Some we have slept with and some we haven't. I do think that if I had to choose between being friends with some of the people we have meet in the lifestyle and having sex with them, I would choose friendship, but we do think you can have sex with them and still remain good friends

We have done both, "swung" with friends and became friends with swing partners. I stand firm in my (much) earlier statements that sex and friendships do not mix. I think a lot of it has to do with a person's definition of "friend". To me, if someone has earned the title "friend" if means that I trust that person. would get out of bed at 3 a.m. to bail them out of jail or meet them at the hospital or change a flat or drive them home after drinking too much, and would expect them to do the same for me. As you can guess, we have very few friends.

Most of the people we play with are people we know casually. We know their name, what they do for a living, and how many children they have. However, we have also had mind blowing sex with people we just met. One or two of these have turned out to be total @$$holes after and we didn’t go back for seconds. Sometimes we even joke about it like “She sure turned out to be a bitch but she sure could (insert sex act).” We don’t have to “like” someone to have sex with them, however, we do not have sex with someone we dislike.

I think the term "friends" is sometimes misused. The point I got from Uomo's comment is that you have to at least like someone before you can fuck them. So in the situation of a single male (or even a couple) if the couple doesn't like you are senses that you're there for the wrong reasons (just to get laid regardless of who it is) then they will probably pass on by.

The fact that you get to know someone does not mean that you can't still seperate sex and love. They are always two different things.

The best advice we got was from the male of a couple who had been swinging for over 10 years.

He suggested that we 'just go for it' with anyone that got our interest before we knew them well enough that we didn't want to play. He said: that way, once you know them and aren't thrilled, at least you already had good sex".

We gave in and tried it his way shortly after that and it has worked for us.

Jim & I prefer to know the people we play with. We love our friends, and even love the people we play with, we're not IN LOVE with them though. We've found the sex is better with those that we know well....

Assuming you are like me and honesty is a primary concern, acquaintances with benefits is fairly close to the truth. You have a need to be honest and truthful with others, and Unwilling to tell a female you love her just to get into her pants. (aka; predatory sex}

Nothing wrong with being friends, I think most couples would consider you an (acquaintance level) friend, if they simply like you as a person, respect your relationship and you respect theirs and their limitations.

Level 2 friend would be someone you go to other activities with, such as baseball games, bowling, etc.

Level 3 friend would be sharing weddings, family events,and such.

Level 4 friendship would be more along the lines of a polysexual, very close relationship.

anyway if this helps you understand or file it away in a mental compartment, its my 2 cents.

Everybody is different but for us it is quite simple.

We are not looking for friends, we have plenty. But we would not play with somebody who we could or would not be friends with. If we become friends then great. From what I can tell, most people feel this way, but obviously not all.

Besides, going to a club or party would pretty boring if everybody wanted to be friends first.

We entered the lifestyle with the intentions of having casual sex with others, not to be friends with everyone or have some kind of dating relationship. Along the way we have developed many friendships from casual to close enough that we spend vacation time with them, however we had sex first and the friendships came later. At hotel parties we play with people that we've never seen before and may never see again. Friendship never enters into it. It's just sex, nothing more intended.

I find that the friendship develops after the sex - and if it does, great. I like friends with sexy benefits:)

Sex is much better with a couple or single person that you feel comfortable with. To feel comfortable with someone does not mean you have to be friends with them. It just means that you have been around them enough or had some kind of exchanges of words to atleast say you like them or enjoy their company when you do cross each other's paths.

I am of the mindset that I go into things looking for some fun socializing and then some sex. Yes, i need to like you, but only well enough to have good cocktail convo with you. If friendship develops, that's cool, but definitely not required, much less required first/

For some people it might work fine, but, I'm in swinging for the sex, not the friends. All my friends happen to be swingers, but that happened after i did most of them.

We chose to have some type of friendship with our playmates.We feel more comfortable and can trust each other.it is more of a safety issue

As newbies who have no experience yet, this is an issue that we struggle with. We went into this with the intention of getting to know people well enough to feel comfortable being intimate with them. We are finding that this is somewhat of a gray area, because developing friendships take time, something we have precious little of.

I still can't imagine having sex with a total stranger, but I'm beginning to think that it's not necessary to be considered "friends", before swapping. Certainly, like others have said, I would want it to be someone I could be friends with, if a relationship develops.

I would imagine that for us that "friends first" equates to compatibility and a level of comfortability with the other couple.

We wonder what people mean by the words "friends first". Do people mean friend, or friendly aquaintance? We only have sex with people we are attracted to - doesn't have anything to do with friendship. How is it possible to grow a friendship with someone you have only known for a day? A week? A month? We don't lightly call someone our friend.

We see friendship as a kind of love, carrying with it mutual obligations and committment. If we call you our friend, it means a lot. When people use the word lightly, we take it to mean they might not know what true friendship is... we certainly take it with a grain of salt.

My best friend is the love of my life! We've always used the word to describe our love and committment for each other. (As in "Babe, you are the only friend I need.")

We wonder what people mean by the words "friends first". Do people mean friend, or friendly aquaintance? We only have sex with people we are attracted to - doesn't have anything to do with friendship. How is it possible to grow a friendship with someone you have only known for a day? A week? A month? We don't lightly call someone our friend.

We think you've hit the nail on the head.. many use the word 'friend' too broadly. A statement M has made many times is "I have numerous acquaintences but rather few friends..and no compelling desire to change the ratio!"

We suspect a more accurate statement of what most swingers are looking for would be, "someone I am comfortable with and that I am sexually attracted to". There are many different ways that 'comfortable with' can be arrived at, but the norm is through common ground, personality, etc - what many describe as 'clicking'.

Suprisingly, "Nice tits, wanna fuck?" has an incredibly low success rate!

Well I wouldn't say that we are looking for "friends first", but we are not opposed to having lasting friendships with those we play with. Heck, 1 of the girls that my baby is talking to, they have been friends for over 5 years! Her and her man got curious about all this pretty much the same time we did (coincidence I swear it!!), and we are all sure that it will turn into all 4 of us gettin' busy. Right now we are just looking at a 3some with the other girl (she has permission).

What we really want is a few select people we can trust implicitly with each other, and I believe with that degree of trust, a friendship is a natural development. My girl and I agreed from the beginning we would not be "bed-hoppers". We are not in this to experiment with new people, but new situations.

I understand those not wanting anything more than a physical connection, but it has been my experience that sex when there is JUST a physical connection is not nearly as satisfying as if you at least are friends with the person. Doesn't have to be love or anything of the sort, just... friends. I could never enjoy myself if she was screwing some other guy with me, and I couldn't TRUST the guy.

It may seem that I have strayed off topic, and focus on trust issues more than the original post, however my whole point is that with the trust that at least WE want, friendships, hopefully lasting ones, are inevitable.

Dynamar said:

Dito My main rule: I won't have sex with someone I wouldn't have as a friend. Doesn't mean we are friends, but definitely means we could be or might be.

I abso-flippin-lutely love this train of thought, and we have discussed making this a "frame of mind" for us....not that we weren't already thinking that way, but it's good to see it put into words....thanks Dynamar.

xxoticangel said:

We don’t have to “like” someone to have sex with them, however, we do not have sex with someone we dislike.

That works for a lot of people.....but *we* do have to "like" someone to have sex with them -- we'd have to "LIKE" them a lot.....I don't give the "gift" of trust to my partner to use it on folks we don't "LIKE".....besides, I have a hard time "performing" for strangers (let alone for strangers I don't like or dislike).....there *HAS* to be something there beyond attraction......hell, if Jessica Alba or Jamie Lee Curtis (who I find very attractive) were to be laying in my bed as a "gift" from my partner (BabyGirl), that would, on the surface, be AWESOME....but if they opened their mouths and show themselves to be unfriendly or have the IQ of a rock, or turn out to be a complete "c-nt".....then I am sorry, but thanks for the Eye Candy....thanks for playing.....but they go home with a consolation prize of "REJECTION".... I am not "all that"....just means I couldn't have sex with them......however the second part is true...."we do not have sex with someone we dislike"......this is definitely how we are.....

jimnjan said:

Jim & I prefer to know the people we play with. We love our friends, and even love the people we play with, we're not IN LOVE with them though. We've found the sex is better with those that we know well....

Another noteworthy "quote".....thank you jimnjan

Tia Vampire said:

Sex is much better with a couple or single person that you feel comfortable with. To feel comfortable with someone does not mean you have to be friends with them. It just means that you have been around them enough or had some kind of exchanges of words to at least say you like them or enjoy their company when you do cross each others paths.

Again, well said Tia....."comfortable" and "friend" isn't always synonymous but to be comfortable with someone, you can think to yourself "This is someone I could see being friends with".....and that helps the frame of mind for me...

It's obviously a spectrum, but I'm on the mushy end of the scale. I've tried the more "random hookup" type encounters and it's usually hollow. I prefer someone I have a friendship with, to build something more long term. Might mean we only see each other a few times a year, but we are getting to know each other via email because we genuinely like each other.

This is a strange analogy but it's how I see the world. I talk to every dog on the street, and if I came to your house, I would pet your dog, walk it, and we would likely develop a connection. I would love your dog. I'd take your dog on walks and visit him. But I would never try to take him, as he's your dog. I may scratch his belly or give him the butt rubs, but after that I'm going home to my cats!

I have a very open heart so I can't help but enjoy loving people as friends and sometimes being sexual with them. Or rubbing their bellies. Whatever makes them happy. Afterwards, I always go home to my own little tribe.

As it says in our sls profile, "Do we have to be life-long pals just to play? No, but we tend to gravitate toward friendly and likeable people."

Yes, there must be a physical attraction for us to play, and we look to build on that attraction first. If we become friends, all the better. If not, we'll just enjoy the hot sex for what it is.

We've been fortunate to make some really good friends through swinging--the kind of friends we'd trust with our kids. Perhaps we don't find that uncomfortable since we'd known the couple who popped our swinger cherry for 3 years . . .

=)