Violated by groping

Mr Indy and I had an unfortunate incident at a club last night, and it has prompted us to discuss a few things we want your opinions on.

Here is the question:

As a woman, it seems that in order to say NO, you have to have been violated atleast once. (I am only talking about getting groped, nothing more) Something has to happen to generate the NO response for you, and to me that mean you have already been violated.

It seems in my experience, single men are the ones that take the NO and move on. The married guys are the ones that don't.

As a woman, do you accept the liablity that undesired groping is going to happen just because you are at the club and dancing seductively?

Or.... Do you expect the club to be steadfast in a proactive stance against this and protect your right to dance seductively/suggestively by educating and watching over the men in attendance?

Do you immediately inform the club 'bouncers' after the first unpermissive touch and ask that the man be removed or talked to, or do you allow one slip and on the second attempt go to the authorities?

In a perfect world, people, not just women could dance or act provocatively without fear of be groped. Unfortunately in a club environment, there is a sense of Anonymity that just seems to scream, be a jerk.

It is not just women who are groped -- I can't count the number of times I have been grabbed, ( and not just my A** ) in a club.

I think, that not only the Club, but any self respecting male ( or female as the case may be ) should police this behavior. I do.

Interesting point Mephisto.

I've talked about this a couple of times with my lovely wife, and I too, am amazed at the fact that a perfect stranger would think it acceptable to walk over to me and essentially stick her hand down the front of my pants.

There is a clear double standard, which I accept, but question.

Isn't that the way it is in a vanilla club? A man walks up behind a woman and grabs her ass and he gets a slap and possibly an escort to the door by bouncers. A woman walks up and does the same thing to a man and she gets cheered on. I think it is societal and not just in swinging.

Now wait a minute!!! We don't go to clubs so we're a bit naive. Are y'all saying people walk up to you and grab a handful?? I'd say that's a bit forward in any setting, except maybe Naples.

I don't think we'd ever touch anyone sexually until well after the first kiss. It seems like asking wouldn't be needed...

(Shaking their heads in amazement, two Hick Okies slink away to their Home on the Range...)

At our club security watches the single men closely, and they do step in if need be. To have someone just touch you without your permission, to me, is a violation of my personal space - whether I am dancing suggestively or not. JMHO....

Jenn

You have a reasonable expectation of being free from unwanted or uninvited touching anytime, not just in a club, be it vanilla or on premise swinger. Some clubs police the guests well while some others are lax. We only had a slight problem once that was cured by my calmly telling the gentleman involved that his gonads would be on the next buffet. It pays to be really big and uglee when you say something like this.

Alura said:

Now wait a minute!!! We don't go to clubs so we're a bit naive. Are y'all saying people walk up to you and grab a handful?? I'd say that's a bit forward in any setting, except maybe Naples.

 

I don't think we'd ever touch anyone sexually until well after the first kiss. It seems like asking wouldn't be needed...

 

(Shaking their heads in amazement, two Hick Okies slink away to their Home on the Range...)

Well Al, sometimes yes. Oakie or Hoosier makes no difference.

On 3 separate occasions, I have had my boobs and bottom grabbed, both after specifically saying NO to the offender and after it happened the first time. I really feel violated. In fact, the more I think about it, the worse I feel.

I created this post from my point of view (woman) and I do realize that it happens to men, too.

It seems that it is the Married guys who just don't take NO for No and it seems like it is the club owners that somewhat condone this behavior if the guy is there as a couple.

Why should the woman be in the position to have to say NO anyway? If I have reached the point of saying NO, some violation of my body has occurred anyway.

Again, in my experience, this is happening from Married men.

Mrs. I

In my research of clubs I have found that NO means NO is most club's number one rule. You have a good question here. I guess, as this rule goes, you have to have a reason to say NO. And if the unacceptable behavior continues, then the abuser has broken this club rule. I would have to say that one NO, then if it continues, its time to put up onehellofa fuss. I am sorry that you have had a few unfortunate encounters. It could have been in a vanilla club that this has happened too. I hope that club owners see this post and think that they need to keep a better eye on those married dudes that think that once step into the club, and the world (and any woman's body) is their oyster.

northindycpl said:

It seems in my experience, single men are the ones that take the NO and move on. The married guys are the ones that don't.

I think married guys have an added bit of "confidence" because they "brought their own". Some do think this gives them license - which is annoying as hell, frankly. But that's another soapbox...

It does happen - and it is annoying. As a guy, it doesn't bother me so much, but it does happen. This very cute - but seriously whacked out - lady grabbed my ass one night as I was going to get a drink. I turned around, a bit stunned, and she said, "I have wandering hands. I just can't control them." At which point she grabbed me "elsewhere."

I just smiled at her and said, "me, too." And grabbed her boobs and ass. Then I moved on...

Women don't have the freedom to be that bold, unfortunately.

Oddly, this has never happened to Mrs Spoomonkey. And she is incredible grope-able. I think it is the way that she carries herself. You can tell by looking at her that a "wandering hand" would be bitten off at the stump...

We aren't the most active couple out there. We don't have a lot of club-going experience, and have never been to an on-premises club. But are we Canadians so much more polite? Granted, the concept of personal space does shrink noticeably at a club, down to a distance of about 1 foot. The combination of erotic atmosphere and loud music make that a natural thing. Beyond that, if someone accidentally touches someone else, both parties apologize (again, I think the tendency to over-apologize is a Canadian thing). I have never been grabbed yet. I've been told I have a nice ass, and I've got big boobs, but I have yet to be groped. Don't get me wrong, people do touch! But NO one has ever just walked up to either of us with enough audacity to grope us without even knowing our names! That HAS, on the other hand, happened in a vanilla club. Sad, eh?

intuition897 said:

We aren't the most active couple out there. We don't have a lot of club-going experience, and have never been to an on-premises club. But are we Canadians so much more polite? , eh?

Unfortunately this weekend I have found this is not the case. I was on the dance floor shakin' it for all I was worth, when an unwanted hand grabbed my butt, not accidentally as you might expect from a crowded dance floor either. Fine I thought, harmless grope, I let it go, needless to say he continued until I had to move my position on the floor until I was away from him.

Then while talking with a friend (while resting from some heavy dancing), a guy I had met once or twice and I had taken pity on and talked to earlier as he really didn't know any one, decided that my kindness was open invitation and he latched onto my neck like a starving leech and proceeded to try and grope my ass. I was shocked at how brazen he was, it was aggressive and unwanted and I had to damned near pry him off.

I think it is important to note that there was one guy how was very respectful and did not try any unwanted groping...and he was a single guy. I think there is definitely more confidence and freedom afforded to the married men.

One night at the club I had been wanting to get the attention of a couple who was in our group that evening (I had never met them before). They went off into a room and left the door open and didn't put the chain across. I would never have been so bold to enter the room (even though they hinted an interest earlier in the night) so I stood there with my hip resting on the doorway and my arm stretched across to the other side. I was waiting to catch their attention to be invited in when this stereotypical "dirty old man" came up to me very close. I didn't want to move because I had this image of what I wanted to happen all played out but he got closer and closer and then whispered in my ear "how would you like to do to me what she's doing to him". I shook my head no as I didn't want to say anything outloud to not ruin the moment. He then proceeded to come a little closer and kissed my arm and asked "are you sure?" I was really bothered by it but really didn't want to ruin the mood so I shook my head again and mouthed the "no" with this scowl on my face. He then proceeded to try to kiss my arm again and I walked away so not to spoil the mood of those playing in the room. Unfortunately they had looked up and were sicked by what they saw and then when I got far enough away I said "no" sternly and left to tell my husband what happened (he was nearby but didn't see what happened). The bouncers were quickly notified and the guy was thrown out immediately. The couple I was watching came up to me and were so bothered by the whole thing and I kept apologizing for being part of what spoiled their fun (of course they didn't think it was my fault, and it wasn't). I should have walked away the very first time and reported him but I had this fantasy in my mind and it was a work in progress of which he intruded upon. After the couple found out what I was trying to do they sounded pretty disappointed it went the way it did.

Just because I was in that kind of atmosphere didn't give that man any right to kiss my arm. It still gives me creeps to think about it.

Ewww Lilo! Yuck. That's really too bad. Sorry that that happened.

I guess we just need to get out more. We've had very few bad experiences but I wonder how many good experiences we've missed out on by trying to avoid the bad ones?

Women on women can be a problem also. Wife was with me and some lady slid over and started going down on my wife before she even knew what was going on. My wife gave her some body language along with some sort of "no thanks" and that was the end of it. No big deal to either of us, I hadn't even thought of it again until this topic came up, but it was certainly not anything I'd do. BUT I also think it depends on the situation and the particular offense. We were playing in an open area I guess intended for group play but we didn't intend to play with anyone else. In that case some initial touching is fine and what happens from there would depend on the reaction. Going straight for the oral is over the line though, IMO. Now when we're out on the dance floor there is also often going to be some touching and groping going on. If you just come up from behind someone and start grabbing their areas then I think it's wrong. But if you've actually been dancing *with* them some, have made some eye contact, exchanged a few words and included some tamer hand movements like touching the arm or hips and then graduated to other places then I think that's perfectly fine as well, especially if you're at a sex club. This dancing example is pretty much the same as in a vanilla club, the only difference is how much further you can take it.

Hi there!

In my country there's no such thing as a swingers club and nor there will be in the near future. Most likely there will be gathering places. But we do have a lot of rudeness and stupidity and as I can see it's not at all uncommon even in places we thought it would be differently.

In my opinion, there's no acceptance of any liability. That behavior is an invasion of ones intimacy and can be physical or emotional as well. It shouldn't happen! If someone would want their goodies grabbed I believe would tattoo that on a visible spot.

We are still approaching to the swinging idea and one of the good points was the presumption that swingers know to behave. We don't exclude any arousal with a perfect stranger, but I seriously doubt it will ever come from a good grip of our butts. So, the one doing this is a perfect moron. Anyone enjoyed a moron lately? I bet the answer is still NO.

Regards

We will always have different levels of our life intruded upon whereby the word "no" is required.

- Did you want to biggie size your food order? "No thank you"

- Would you like a credit card for our store? "No thank you"

- Would you like to donate to our charity? "No thank you"

- Even the damn gas pumps sometimes ask you a bunch of questions trying to sell you something when all you want to do is put gas in your car and get back on the road! Trouble is you feel stupid telling a machine "NO".

We have never been to a club, but I imagine everyone's perception is slightly varied of what they expect. Some have the fantasy to meet and greet new people and if they hit it off to let things take their course. Others however may have the image that it is all out hedonism and anything goes. I think they would call that the orgy room, but outside that realm most of us still wish to be civil and to be treated with civility. It is when the two opposites meet that trouble arises.

Unfortunately there are people in this world who think that by proceeding indiscreetly or forcefully that they will get their way and ignore the word "NO" at their own peril and act contrite about their position when they are caught.

Like I have read on the board many times "NO MEANS NO!".

Unfortunately there are some who believe the rules were made for someone else.

I should have walked away the very first time and reported him but I had this fantasy in my mind and it was a work in progress of which he intruded upon. After the couple found out what I was trying to do they sounded pretty disappointed it went the way it did.

 

Just because I was in that kind of atmosphere didn't give that man any right to kiss my arm. It still gives me creeps to think about it.

Alilo,

My situations have been similar. And I now find myself a little more than freaked out by them.

I am just down right PISSED OFF. I am generally a very happy-go-lucky gal and even more so at the club. I love to dance, have a few drinks and just let my hair down.

My issue is that I have to say NO in the first place. I mean, for me this past weekend, there was a game going on at the club where women got pretend money and the men had to do whatever the woman wanted to earn that money. It is a fun game. Situation #1, a lot of women were sitting in chair on the dance floor while men (those the women invited up) dirty danced in fornt of the women. This man was not invited up, but was there anyway.

As with most white men dancing, I decided I would have more fun if MY 2 dancers just stood kinda still, and I danced against them in the middle. We were all having a great time And I sorta slithered down between the two men when this jack-ass grabbed my boob, hard. I mean he actually stuck his hand between this guys legs to grab my boob. I told him NO immediately and left the dance floor.

Situation #2 I was standing in the kitchen getting a drink facing away towards the ice machine when this jackass literally comes up behind me and grabs my ass, poking me with his little dick. I turned and yelled NO and reported him. He wasn't thrown out, and I was told that he was a good friend of the owners, he would be taken care of.

Situation #3 He came to ask me to dance and I said No as he touched my shoulder.

SItuation #4 I was standing by a fan chatting with a bouncer and a friend, when again, he came up behind me and grabbed my ass under my skirt. I slapped him as hard as I could and yelled NO, and the bouncer grabbed him. Again, I was told that he would be taken care of. At that point I told MR. Indy, and was preparing to leave.

Situation #5 I went over to the DJ stand to get our CD back, and as I was leaning in the DJ booth, this jack ass walks over to me, as MR. Indy was watching and he grabs my ass. I screamed, slapped this guy and Mr. Indy Jumped about 15 feet to my rescue and got into this guys face.

Now I made Critical errors in judgement as I should have removed myself from the situation. I should have told Mr. Indy about it the first time it happened. I should have demanded as loudly as I could that this Jack-ass be removed.

So Maybe I did make mistakes, and I have learned from them and will move on. If this jackass hadn't had the whole "surprize attack" thing going on, I would have felt confident that I could kick his ass.

My point is that I think clubs should be proactive in this, not reactive. I realize this guy was a friend of the owners and this situation is probably not the standard situation, but this is only the most recent of situations that have involved my boobs, ass and groping. It just makes me want to stay home in my turtleneck sweaters!

You and I were both violated before we had the chance to say NO. That is wrong.

I have only had 1 bad experience at the club with being groped.

I was standing talking with a male friend in a very narrow and dead end hallway and this older man walked up to me and reached around to try to grab my ass. I was in too much shock to do or say anything. I wish I taken a better look at the guy, because we think this same guy went up to a female friend and as she was bent over a table talking to friends, this guy tried to shove his fingers up her. She thought it was someone she knew, and she turned around to say something to him and he had walked away. If we had not been as shocked we could have had him thrown out, our club does not stand for that sort of thing.

On the same night, I was trying to walk through the crowded bar area back to the lockers. I must had been grabbed on the ass about 4 times, and when I got back to the lockers a friend was there talking to a guy. I was fussing about being touched when I don't even know the person. The guy she was talking to stuck his hand out and said, "Hi, my name is George". I shook his hand, and then told him that he had permission to touch me now that I knew him. I just thought his sense of humor really helped break the ice. Now he is one of my favorate play partners. If the other guys who just grabbed would be a little less "hands on" they would do a little better in the lifestyle.

I find that if I really like the person and they touch me, I seem ok with it. But if it someone that I really don't like and they touch me, well then I have a problem with that. But I think the best thing to do is talk with someone before any touching goes on, that way you know if it is wanted or not.

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Northindycpl wrote:

 

My issue is that I have to say NO in the first place.

 

Absolutely! You just don't touch someone sexually unless you are sure the touch will be welcome, male or female.

I also think it's silly to ask, "May I touch your breast?" If you need to ask, the touch will probably not be welcome, nor has the proper "groundwork" been done. If a lady wants you to touch her breast, you'll damned-well know it, in my opinion.

As I said previously, we don't go to clubs, vanilla or swing. This thread will likely keep us out for the foreseeable future. I'm sure there are a lot of nice people in clubs but we're not willing to put up with the others in order to find them.

I want to point out something else, it's not just the men who do this but there are women who do this to women too.

I was out on the dance floor dancing with these two women. Neither of which I would have been attracted to but I was the only on the dance floor so they came to dance next to me. That was okay until after MAYBE a minute I was dancing with my hands in the air and one quickly lifted off my top slipping it off my arms and the other grabbed my breasts. This happened so fast I had this deer in the headlights look and quickly grabbed my shirt, put it back on and told them I don't mind dancing but I wasn't up to playing. It's not like it was bumping and grinding dirty dancing to begin with, we were just dancing in a circle next to each other. They left me alone after that and I never thought to report them.

I would never let either of my not so good experiences deter me from going again. I've been to the on premise clubs twice and I have a ton of fun stories from them. The great stories outweigh the bad and just made the fun time I had go from a "10" to a "9". I wouldn't want them to scare a newbie away from going to a club. I never lost any sleep over those incidents.

Mrs. Indy, I'm bettin' that this jackass, being a friend of the owner's and all, thought he had carte blanche with the ladies. He was sure acting like it anyway. I'm sure sorry that you had to deal with that.

I'd call the owners and discuss it with them now that the heat of the moment is past. Let them know that you understand he's a friend and that it may put them in a difficult spot, but that you're not comfortable coming to the club is he's there, because he doesn't understand rule #1. If they want to be reputable club owners, they'll deal with him appropriately.

It's not supposed to be that way at clubs. Women have to feel that they can comfortably and safely express their sexuality in that environment or this whole lifestyle thing just isn't gonna work out at all.

Mrs. Indy, I'm a little confused. Are you saying it was the same jackass each time?? I mean, you said no, you shouted NO!, you even slapped the thick-headed SOB, and he STILL didn't get it???? OMG, and they STILL hadn't dealt with him?

We've never had any experiences like that, but Mr. and I keep a pretty close eye on one another at clubs anyway; if I know Mr. intuition, the guy would've been mopping his own blood up off the floor after he'd been caught doing it. Now normally he's not a violent guy...wouldn't hurt a fly...but he has no time or respect for people who have no respect for me or our relationship. I guess we're still pretty naive; I had no idea there really were jerks out there like that!

intuition897 said:

Mrs. Indy, I'm a little confused. Are you saying it was the same jackass each time?? I mean, you said no, you shouted NO!, you even slapped the thick-headed SOB, and he STILL didn't get it???? OMG, and they STILL hadn't dealt with him?

Yes. The same SOB each time. Really not sure if we will go back to this club again. It is just so wrong. As I previously stated, I do accept my responsibility in delaying the reporting of it after the first time, and that is a mistake I will never make again.

Hello again, folks. It's been a while since posting. This topic caught my eye and raised my hackles.

I was very sorry to hear what happened. Unfortunately, it wasn't the first time.

Women, all people for that matter, want to go to clubs for some fun. It shouldn't matter if one is dressed for a night out with a "come fuck me" look. That look and attitude is aimed at someone specific or of one's chosing. You shouldn't also have to wear a sign that says "But ask first!"

No means no, of course. It ought to be an answer to a question asked once and only once. It should not be a reaction to an event.

We used to go to clubs. We haven't for a couple of years. After this thread, we won't.

If a no must come after something that has happened, it is too late.

Mrs. Indy,

My wife and I have been talking about going to visit a club for the first time. But thoughts of something like your experience happening to her makes my blood boil. I do not think I could restrain myself if she were in any way threatened or violated, unless it was of her own choosing, and I am a rather larger than average person. Would you be willing to tell us the name of the club you were at? So we could definitely avoid it.

I guess we've been lucky, or just joined the right club. It's off premise, may be that helps. We've never had any problems with unwanted groping, nor have our friends, and we've been regulars for over there for over a year now. The club owners, and "monitors" are ever present, and very friendly, but "BIG".

Its a sorry state of affairs that some men can't seem to get it. While I have tried not to act shocked at all sorts of behaviours in club situations, the one that shocks me the most are the single guys that don't seem to get it. I have witnessed first hand as other single Males have tried to put themselves into the action--action that I was involved in--to the point that the other guy had to threaten physical action to get rid of the jerk. And earlier in the evening, the same guy and others were circling single women like vultures and openly playing with themselves (this particular case happened in a club in Las Vegas).

These are the same guys who probably begin their conversations with women with "Let's fuck." Behaviour like that makes it understandable why many women don't want single males around, yet that denies them and me the opportunity to get together. Obviously I think that I "get it" and I certainly don't behave like that--and I think that is why I do get picked to play.

I wish there could be a card issued to myself and the other guys I have seen who do get it. Instead, my local clubs just have a blanket policy, single males excluded. You'd think I'd have a lot of clubs to choose from in the Los Angeles. Nope. To my knowledge, NONE of the L.A. clubs accept single males. As you get further away from the city, there are clubs in the outlying areas that do--they actually support themselves at the exorbitant rates they charge the single males.

So if I go to a club, I have to go well over a hundred miles through the second most populated metropolis in the country, to meet and possibly play with women or couples who haven't even heard of the town I live in. It certainly limits the close friends I can develop or the number of repeat performances I get. Certainly I think these are positive experiences for the women too, so it is their loss as well.

It has been a bit since I made this post, and I wanted to tell you all that clubs aren't bad. I would hate for any of you to avoid going to a club and experiencing all there is to experience because of this issue. Yes, it royally pisses me off still- but I am not going to avoid going to a club. I may not avoid going to this club again either.

We all should be wary and cautious. I know I certainly will be more cautious in the future. I am chaulking this up to experience and moving on.

I also wanted to point out to everyone the lessons I learned from this experience.

1) I am limiting my alcohol intake at swing clubs as a matter of personal safety and responsibility. If defenses are down, then it not a good thing, no matter where you are at.

2.) I will not walk around the club alone (without Mr. Indy) I had established a false sense of security at this club, and honestly many other places.

3.) We are going to survey our surroundings a bit better. Again, that false sense of security made me immediately want to come in and party regardless of I knew 'safe people' or not.

4.) MOST IMPORTANTLY... I will immediately report and/or leave if anyone touches me with out permission. If anyone approaches me for a touch and I am not in agreement, I will try to prevent it.

I think this is just common sense, and all the things I listed are things I would do at any bar, and we should all do.

Still..... 21% almost one in 4 people that attend clubs think it is ok for a woman to be touch first without permission according to the poll.

Astounding!

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So Maybe I did make mistakes, and I have learned from them and will move on.

You didn't make any mistakes at all. You said No and that should have bewen enough the first time. For him to make advances on you that many times is just wrong and I don't care if he's the club owners son, he should have been kicked out of the club or told to leave the dance floor.

Now, I don't have any club experience at all, period. But I do plan on changing that since we're visiting Calgary on Sept long weekend and already have our invite to the "Calgary Playground".

So I guess we'll find out now, won't we? I won't be happy if this happens to me though. I can understand one attempt but any more than that is unnecessary.

Alura said:

Northindycpl wrote:

 

My issue is that I have to say NO in the first place.

 

Absolutely! You just don't touch someone sexually unless you are sure the touch will be welcome, male or female.

 

I also think it's silly to ask, "May I touch your breast?" If you need to ask, the touch will probably not be welcome, nor has the proper "groundwork" been done. If a lady wants you to touch her breast, you'll damned-well know it, in my opinion.

This is such a blurry topic because of all the different situations that come up. We all agree on rule #1 that no-means-no, and many situations are straightforward, like complete strangers groping out of nowhere, or continued groping after already being told no.

But I'm generally ok with having to say no the first time (and only the first time) in a less clear-cut situation, like when you're chatting and being friendly, and the other person thinks they've laid the proper "groundwork" and makes a move without asking that silly "can-I-touch-your-breast" question - but they're wrong . Some people are just more socially dense than others, and I think everyone can have "off" times when they're more socially dense than their usual selves, either in swinging or vanilla situations - I know I have .

Want to be clear that my tolerance does NOT extend to those clear-cut situations like Mrs Indy's.

This is such a blurry topic because of all the different situations that come up. We all agree on rule #1 that no-means-no, and many situations are straightforward, like complete strangers groping out of nowhere, or continued groping after already being told no.

 

But I'm generally ok with having to say no the first time (and only the first time) in a less clear-cut situation, like when you're chatting and being friendly, and the other person thinks they've laid the proper "groudnwork" and makes a move without asking that silly "can-I-touch-your-breast" question - but they're wrong . Some people are just more socially dense than others, and I think everyone can have "off" times when they're more socially dense than their usual selves, either in swinging or vanilla situations - I know I have .

 

Want to be clear that my tolerance does NOT extend to those clear-cut situations like Mrs Indy's.

This describes how I feel about it. Blatant disrespect for boundaries is never ok (and disregard for social commonsense like NOT putting your hands on a complete stranger). But I'm willing to cut some people some slack. Everyone makes a faux pas now and then, and I'm certainly not immune to it!! I can be somewhat socially dense at times, with my can't-we-all-just-get-along? good-natured personality. Sometimes I overstep social boundaries, asking questions that are too personal to be considered polite, or insulting someone with what I intended as a compliment. Yeah, I can be a bit of a jackass about that, and I always feel like apologizing in advance for any social blunder I might commit. Really! I'm serious! I've always been like this. It borders on a handicap.. lol The result is that I end up appearing shy in public, because I'm afraid of putting my foot in my mouth. Yeah, yeah, everyone likes my posts, but the fact is I get to sit and think about what I'm typing, and go back and edit if necessary. Can't do that in real life.

So being a social klutz myself, maybe I'm more understanding of those who honestly didn't realize their conduct was inappropriate. However, if after they've been told "NO!" in no uncertain terms, and don't even have the decency to be a little embarrassed or ashamed of themselves, I have much less sympathy for people such as that.

EDIT>> See? I'm using the edit thing again! Just wanted to throw in a little disclaimer that I realize that not EVERYONE likes my posts I was just being a little sarcastic.

I don't see how it's the club's fault but it's still a big issue.

My little wife wears tight pants usually when we go to swing clubs or adult-themed nightclub parties. She really doesn't like random strangers groping her anywhere but especially her nether regions.

Once we were out with a couple we know and a couple who were friends of theirs. Right there on the dance floor at a swing club the stranger male sticks his hand down the back of my wife's pants and fingers her before she can stop him. I would never think to blame the club for that but she made it very clear how uncool that was and we've completely shunned that couple forever. Not that she liked him in the first place or anything. NO SOUP FOR YOU! NEXT!!!

Solutions like that and wearing pants seem more appropriate to us than trying to blame the club or the promoter for some asshole guest being rude.

I have to say that I'm a little shocked by some of the situations related in this post. I'm no prude and certainly no angel, but uninvited groping is wrong, period.

It's well understood that a woman can share herself with anyone she chooses. Married women will have already discussed this and hubby's approval is usually also a prerequisite. Although many would probably think there's no harm in 'just groping', regardless of the setting if it's uninvited it's still harrassment and should be treated as such.

Justification may vary among people, but still doesn't meet the requirement of obtaining permission. If I was the lady's escort I'd accept no excuses for not asking first. Having one too many to drink, assumptions based on looks, setting or suggestive movements are not substitutes for seeking permission. If he did the same thing on a public street or in a restaurant such actions could result in misdemeanor assault or sexual harrassment charges, and as far as I know women don't waive their rights by simply attending a club. If you sign any kind of agreement, be sure and read it carefully.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: If I want something from a woman, I'll ask for it. I've never taken anything from a woman that wasn't freely given. If I want it badly enough, I may even ask twice. Beyond that lies a mine field; venturing into such a danger zone can't possibly mean anything good. I've been groped a few times, and even for a male it's usually not considered a compliment. The first time it's a surprise; the second time it angers me. I can understand how the ladies feel, and since I don't drink it's not likely I'll 'forget', but I can only speak for myself.

Considering the unpredictable nature of a club, I'd advise against it in favor of a more controlled environment. Club security will have the club's best interests as a priority, not necessarily yours, and even if they're extremely conscientious it's still no guarantee against an unpleasant experience that could spoil your evening.

Well, I got a really big taste on unwanted groping this weekend.

We were at a dance and there were a lot of older guys there (my apologize to any older gentlemen out there, I know you are not all like this, these happen to be a bad example). They didn't seem to have any problem walking by and grabbing your boob or ass or anything.

My friend got up and did her usual strip routine, when one of these mooks looks at me and says "why don't you join her, get into the mood." I declined but he kept standing really close. When she was done, he would not let her get dressed, so I moved in between them (she was very thankful). So instead he pressed up against me and said "oh sorry" with a leer but kept doing it. First I said no, but he didn't move, I said no again and did it again. Finally I turned to him and said "Fuck off I said no!" I think he got the hint.

I was talking to one of the couples that run the dance and they were quite upset and said next time go to the bouncer and have him removed. I am not going to have someone thrown out for one grab, but something like that I think should definately be removed. There is not need for that kind of disrespect.

MJ, it's guys like that who keep more women from feeling free enough to express themselves or go to a club at all, which is pretty counterproductive if you think about it. Kudos to you for standing up to him, but I'm sorry you had to do it in the first place.

Hello,

Just wanted to put in our own experiences. We live in Virginia and everywhere near by require you to be at least 21 (I’m 20) because of the alcohol so we haven’t had a lot of club experiences. We went to one place in North Carolina (general bad experience) and there weren’t a lot of people or a dance floor so that doesn’t count. But being groped is not just a swinging thing or a clubbing thing, my husband has been groped numerous times.

We are both Scottish and my husband quite often wears his kilt, for instance at events and festivals. I can not count how many times he is groped, I would say at least 10 times in a six hour period. He has worn his kilt in Canada as well as the UK and was never groped there. I am also not referring to just a pinch on the rear. It is most often that they go under the kilt and grope the entire package (nothing is worn under the kilt, everything works just fine). There have been also a few occasions where while talking to someone there was suddenly a camera under his kilt. If there is not permission I find this extremely rude and I normally say something to the person, which normally takes care of it.

So this is definitely not alone with swinging, and I thank everyone for sharing their experiences. I will be making sure to be cautious and not too far from Mr. MacLeod.

macleods727 said:

Hello,

He has worn his kilt in Canada as well as the UK and was never groped there.

If it was on the east coast it is because a lot of us (including myself) are of Scottish decent and wearing a kilt is not uncommon. We don't grope (unless we are asked to )

Wow, the idea of anyone, man or woman, being groped so aggressively just boggles my mind. I have never seen behaviour like this first-hand anywhere here in Ontario, kilt or no. I had always assumed that reaching under someone's skirt or kilt, grabbing and squeezing their various body parts, or verbally propositioning them in a crude way was just unthinkably...RUDE!! Maybe we're all just a little more reserved up here, or maybe, as MJ suggested, we've been culturally desensitized to the kilt. Now generally guys here don't look in their closet and wonder hmmm...should I wear my khakis or my green kilt today? But the university I work at has Scottish roots, so occasionally you'll see some school spirit and some of the young guys in kilts. Plus, just about any parade or celebration has at least a couple of bands with bagpipes and kilts, too. Sure, there's always the good natured joking about what men wear under them, but no one ever THINKS of assaulting a guy to find out first hand!!

This would appear to be a very good time and place to ask this question:

Catherine and I have a long-standing fantasy about her being groped by strangers in a club while she is dancing with me. We get off on that a lot. Now, if the fantasy was realized, what is the down side(s)?

I am glad i came here and these replies... I have been so nervous about this very subject. This has been one of my issues with the club scene.. I have only gone to one club club here in Houston and I had a blast. Went with some girlfriends. The only problem was that getting on the dance floor meant that all body parts were fair game for groping and prodding and what ever.... It wouldn't have been so bad if it were just a few people sensually respectfully touching... noooooo! It was way out of hand. I was pushed and pushed up against, grinded on fingered, almost fingered, hands in my face as if to stick their fingers in my mouth.. all within half a song.. I was a little traumatized... I just mingled most of the night and decided to dance right at the end.Mistake!!! I guess everyone was just live and in color by then. Little too much for my taste. I did complain nothing was done and i haven't been back to any swinger establishment. I want to go again and experience it with my S/O and taken all of that sexual energy and see what happens but not the group, grind and grope. I've got m nerve back up and S/O is ready to go.. so I'm game.. I'll just be more careful. stay away from the group grind and grope. Heeheheh! Your posts have made me see that it is a common occurrence but not accepted and that makes me more comfortable with that and saying no and and reporting it if they don't stop. Thanks all

My77038 which club in Houston? We go to Encounters and the only groping we've seen was encouraged. The group grinds can get wild.

We are talking about a Swing Club, right? Because the rules are different for a "swing club" than, for example, "Perkins Family Restaurant."

I am NOT advocating unwelcomed groping or touching by strangers. But if you're in a club enviornment, "dancing suggestively" while half-naked among strangers, aren't you, in some ways, welcoming others to touch or make advances? If not, then why are you doing it there? Wouldn't it make more sense to do it at home, or in a hotel room with your friends, than in a club?

I guess what I'm saying is that there's a difference between being "violated" and being "pestered." I wouldn't expect my partner to be "violated," but I WOULD expect her to be "pestered."

God spare me from the time when I'm dating women that other men don't want to touch.

I'm not unsympathetic to the problem. I've had female companions groped, and in a couple of cases, even worse, in clubs. (In my experience, it's usually been by single guys) But that sorta "goes with the territory" doesn't it? If we don't want people touching or expressing interest in other ways, then we shouldn't be there in the first place.

Back to the original question - The first time it happens, (and assuming the advance was unexpected or unwelcomed by my partner) I mention it to the guy directly. After that, I'd go to the manager, although that's never been necessary.

In reply to Sweet candy:

The club was Secrets. I don't think I'll be going back there unless somethings have changed. We plan on going out to encounters this weekend. I hope it's really nice. It will be our first night out together. The time when i went to secrets i went with girlfriends. It didn't count. But We are very excited to go to encounters this weekend . If things go well we plan to go the Halloween party there this year. Seems like some fun.

I wish that I was only being pestered. It would have been different if I dressed suggestively or even dancing sexy i was dancing with my friend in a corner alone when out no where this group group and grind just moved in our direction. One guy and girl were really rough and didnt take no for answer. Don't get me wrong I think the group group thing is cool I would even engourage it. But not what was happening to me and my gf , it was a plain violation. But i have learned my lesson about the group grind n grope, to stay away if im not ready to be fingered and groped like in high school. But any who... we will see what happens this weekend when we go out together for the first time.

Well what was your experience at Encounters? We were there Saturday night. My wife was in a satin orange top with black miniskirt...do you remember? Even after getting her down to panties and bra on the dance floor she wasn't groped unless of course she encouraged it. Hope all went well for you two.

Sweet candy:

We haven't been to Encounters yet. We have this Saturday planned as our night out at Encounters. Hope to see you there, that would be cool.

Does anyone know much about Club Amnesty (located in Orange, California) in

regards to the groping issue? It seems from the reviews I've read, groping is very actively discouraged there.

Alilo,

 

My situations have been similar. And I now find myself a little more than freaked out by them.

 

I am just down right PISSED OFF. I am generally a very happy-go-lucky gal and even more so at the club. I love to dance, have a few drinks and just let my hair down.

 

My issue is that I have to say NO in the first place. I mean, for me this past weekend, there was a game going on at the club where women got pretend money and the men had to do whatever the woman wanted to earn that money. It is a fun game. Situation #1, a lot of women were sitting in chair on the dance floor while men (those the women invited up) dirty danced in fornt of the women. This man was not invited up, but was there anyway.

 

As with most white men dancing, I decided I would have more fun if MY 2 dancers just stood kinda still, and I danced against them in the middle. We were all having a great time And I sorta slithered down between the two men when this jack-ass grabbed my boob, hard. I mean he actually stuck his hand between this guys legs to grab my boob. I told him NO immediately and left the dance floor.

 

Situation #2 I was standing in the kitchen getting a drink facing away towards the ice machine when this jackass literally comes up behind me and grabs my ass, poking me with his little dick. I turned and yelled NO and reported him. He wasn't thrown out, and I was told that he was a good friend of the owners, he would be taken care of.

 

Situation #3 He came to ask me to dance and I said No as he touched my shoulder.

 

SItuation #4 I was standing by a fan chatting with a bouncer and a friend, when again, he came up behind me and grabbed my ass under my skirt. I slapped him as hard as I could and yelled NO, and the bouncer grabbed him. Again, I was told that he would be taken care of. At that point I told MR. Indy, and was preparing to leave.

 

Situation #5 I went over to the DJ stand to get our CD back, and as I was leaning in the DJ booth, this jack ass walks over to me, as MR. Indy was watching and he grabs my ass. I screamed, slapped this guy and Mr. Indy Jumped about 15 feet to my rescue and got into this guys face.

 

Now I made Critical errors in judgement as I should have removed myself from the situation. I should have told Mr. Indy about it the first time it happened. I should have demanded as loudly as I could that this Jack-ass be removed.

 

So Maybe I did make mistakes, and I have learned from them and will move on. If this jackass hadn't had the whole "surprize attack" thing going on, I would have felt confident that I could kick his ass.

 

My point is that I think clubs should be proactive in this, not reactive. I realize this guy was a friend of the owners and this situation is probably not the standard situation, but this is only the most recent of situations that have involved my boobs, ass and groping. It just makes me want to stay home in my turtleneck sweaters!

 

You and I were both violated before we had the chance to say NO. That is wrong.

Mrs. Northindycpl,

I've occasionally found that someone doesn't listen to the first "No." and what I've found to work well is the following: "If you touch my ass again, I'll break your f&%#ing fingers. Got it?" Now on occasion when I've found the moron to be especially icky I have used: "If you touch my ass again, I'll rip your f&%#ing dick off. Got it?" which works quite well too. If I'm not comfortable with the situation the Mr. is always happy to step in and emphasize the above statements.