BDSM and General Swinging

[OhioCouple]

What exactly consititues BDSM? I've read many different web sites and searched until I just can't search anymore as it only makes half sense. My first question would have to be, if you are a swinger and you are also into BDSM, are you able to separate the two?

[imsnowman]

No, All BDSM players force their swinging partners into bondage.

I'm assuming that you are asking whether or not BDSM players will do vanilla play with their swing partners. Actually, since there is no such thing as an official BDSM definition just like there is no official Swinging definition there is no one answer. Also, for every BDSM player the answer would be very individual. Some will do "vanilla" play and some won't. For us, the answer is yes, we can seperate it if our partners aren't interested.

Try reading the book "Sm 101" by Jay Wiseman. It is very in-depth. The cornerstone of all BDSM play as with swining is consensuality.

BTW, do I detect some similarity to your confusion over polyamory here? If so, Heaven help this thread and all who read/reply to it.

Looking forward to your next confusing question. I am actually enjoying your confusion!!!

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by imsnowman

BTW, do I detect some similarity to your confusion over polyamory here? If so, Heaven help this thread and all who read/reply to it.

You crack me up imsnowman! I'll probably never live down the 'polyamory' thread, will I?

Actually, the reason for my asking this question is that a couple we had being seeing on a pretty regular basis got really forceful (the male half) with me one evening. A comfort level had been reached between the four of us and some times we would split off MF separately, and would later all 4 get together at some point in the evening. Although we knew they dabbled in BDSM, they knew that we did not. Somehow, one evening, the line crossed between 'general' swinging (for lack of better words) and BDSM, in the heat of the moment and the two became entertwined. It scared the bejeebers out of me and it has taken me some time to sort this all out, as I didn't know if I encouraged it or not. I spent some time feeling really guilty for not knowing how to stop it or being stern enough to say "ENOUGH" already. If that makes any sense.

End result is that we no longer wish to swing with them as that line was crossed and I no longer have a comfort level with them. We recently just put our ad back up and our ad sternly states that the words, "No, Don't, or Stop" are not signs of encouragement and mean exactly what Webster's dictionary implies.

For the record though, it also became pretty apparent to us that this couple had more relationship problems (between the two of them) than America has right now. Another reason to no longer play with them.

[dpdarling]

i noticed that a lot of the sex clubs advertise a sybian. they have a sybian at their club. i thought use of a sybian was considered a type of bdsm? am i wrong?

[OhioCouple]

While I have never seen a sybian, it is to my understanding that it is an expensive electronic dildo. Nothing more and would have nothing to do with being merely asscociated with BDSM.

[BradAndJanet]

One of the key things in BDSM play is that it be 'safe , sane and consentual'. Scenes are negotiated beforehand (not unlike swinging) so that everyone knows what is OK and what is not. 'Safewords' are agreed upon, because again, just like in swinging, no means no - although sometimes 'bottoms' enjoy saying "No, no, no...." so a different 'stop' word is used, like 'potato' or something that won't normally come up during a scene.

When you say that this person 'crossed the line' I assume you mean he began to get rough with you. This is not what most in the BDSM community would find to be acceptable behavior. Maybe it was safe and sane (maybe not!), but it doesn't sound like it was consentual at all, and certanly not something you all had discussed before things got started. Simply having a sadistic streak does not make one a 'top' and it sounds like he might have been using you to act out his fantasies without regard to how you felt about it. We wouldn't go near anyone who did that.

I do think that S&M 101 is a very good book for the curious. We have dabbled a bit in this area, and have found that we both like the feeling of being restrained and allowing our partner to 'do what you will'. This giving up of control can be both arousing and relaxing to us. But, we are by no means 'hardcore' players, do not find pain arousing (although some do), and it is strictly an optional thing for us.

I hope that others who are more experienced in that realm will chime in here and give us their thoughts. Like swinging, there are a whole lot of 'flavors' to BDSM, but I think what happened with this couple was just plain wrong.

-B

[naughty A]

Originally posted by OhioCouple
What exactly consititues BDSM? I've read many different web sites and searched until I just can't search anymore as it only makes half sense. My first question would have to be, if you are a swinger and you are also into BDSM, are you able to separate the two?

Yes- ... quite easily... in fact my friend who is the Mistress at the local club says this makes us - "PLAYERS". We separate bdsm from regular life not living the bdsm in any kind of serious way we view it as a game/role playing. A play session is pre-negotiated and for a limited time, when it is over we go back to our regular lives. We are doing it for sexual excitement and not through need to please etc. Truly we don't do it all that often, and almost always it has only been the two of us. Also it kind of goes in phases like any interest ... sometimes you want to play it all the time, and then you put it away and don't pick it up again for months and months.

We don't typically tell other swingers of our other hobby, if it does get mentioned then fine, or they visit our house... and see the toys- fine... often they want to try one or the other of the toys but neither of US would INITIATE this type of play... If you want to learn/experiment with it on your own, great ... but we don't want to be your teachers... Ideally it would be nice to meet a couple that shares our same interests to the same degree but I don't really see that happening ...

For me there is a great deal of trust involved and I'm not sure I am willing to give that trust to anyone I didn't know very very well (I'd probably at least want to observe that person in a play session first, to get an idea of their usual style) -- but I ESPECIALLY would not give that trust to an inexperienced person. We've learned our repertoire together, slowly and I know that my partner will never go beyond the limits. Just as when you are with a swing partner there are certain things you do and do not want to do... it is the same FOR US with a bdsm session... certain things are permitted others are not... for instance I'm not into humiliation play... if that kind of thing started and did not stop after a gentle hint - I'd probably stand up, get dressed and leave, probably wouldn't even offer an explanation. But the few people we HAVE played this type of game with DO understand where the lines are drawn and how to find out where they are. If you were a woman who didn't like her hair held during a blow job wouldn't you expect your partner to respect that... it wouldn't necessarily even involve the a BDSM scene... its just a fact. don't do it - you will get a negative response... MUCH easier to err on the side of caution in this type of game.

I have always been told that if you are into BDSM you should NEVER let the two worlds meet. They don't understand one another and both groups are terrified of each other... and I have seen evidence of it. You should not tell the Swingers that you are into BDSM and vice versa.... Of late I have been mentioning it to other people because I think it would be nice to find other couples for the possibility of playing/fulfilling these fantasies but the general reaction is enough to tell me that it is NOT well received... so I think that the fantasies will remain just that... too bad... but so be it.

[windsor4fun2]

I don't know a lot about BDSM; we know one couple who are into it and they are not swingers. BDSM and swinging are two different lifestyles and anyone involved in both should be able to separate the two. BDSM involves alot of self discipline and planing between those involved. If someone can't separate the two especially with someone not into BDSM they shouldn't be involved in either lifestyle. What little I know of BDSM I know those involved would condem someone for crossing the line with anyone.

Jesse

[TymKeepr]

Originally posted by BradAndJanet
One of the key things in BDSM play is that it be 'safe , sane and consentual'. Scenes are negotiated beforehand (not unlike swinging) so that everyone knows what is OK and what is not. 'Safewords' are agreed upon, because again, just like in swinging, no means no - although sometimes 'bottoms' enjoy saying "No, no, no...." so a different 'stop' word is used, like 'potato' or something that won't normally come up during a scene.

When you say that this person 'crossed the line' I assume you mean he began to get rough with you. This is not what most in the BDSM community would find to be acceptable behavior. Maybe it was safe and sane (maybe not!), but it doesn't sound like it was consentual at all, and certanly not something you all had discussed before things got started. Simply having a sadistic streak does not make one a 'top' and it sounds like he might have been using you to act out his fantasies without regard to how you felt about it. We wouldn't go near anyone who did that.

I do think that S&M 101 is a very good book for the curious. We have dabbled a bit in this area, and have found that we both like the feeling of being restrained and allowing our partner to 'do what you will'. This giving up of control can be both arousing and relaxing to us. But, we are by no means 'hardcore' players, do not find pain arousing (although some do), and it is strictly an optional thing for us.

I hope that others who are more experienced in that realm will chime in here and give us their thoughts. Like swinging, there are a whole lot of 'flavors' to BDSM, but I think what happened with this couple was just plain wrong.

-B

S&M 101 is a good book for starters, another, that I like better (don't tell Jay! ) for a beginner is Screw the Roses, Send Me the Thorns.

What happened with Mrs. O was, to me, way out of bounds and as you stated would be deeply frowned on by the BDSM community. Sounds like nothing was negotiated beforehand, no safewords set up, etc....BIG NO NO. Various people will use different words for safewords, but the ones that get used the most are "green" meaning whatever you're doing is great, keep it up! "yellow" to slow down or move on to something else, "Red" which means STOP NOW! In a public play space, when "red" is signalled things had better stop or play will get stopped for them.

It would have been completely different if Mrs. O had discussed any kind of interest in rougher play and a scene had been negotiated, but obviously she didn't. It seems like the individual you were with took it upon himself to try something different with Mrs. O, like dropping into "top space" or as we jokingly like to say, he became the "domly dom".

If this is a couple that Mr. and Mrs. O generally like, I'd try discussing with them what happened, how uncomfortable it made Mrs. O feel, that she didn't really know what to do or to get herself out of the situation. See what the response of the other couple is, because he may not even be aware of the position he put Mrs. O in unless he's told.

As for keeping swinging and BDSM separate, I suppose I could do with just vanilla. Though, having had my first real swinging experience last night, we were lucky to find a couple that he's very interested in bottoming and she's wanting to learn to top, so teaching them some BDSM things was great foreplay! :evil:
And, Boy! are my nipples sore this morning!

Good Luck!
TymKeepr

"One man's pain is another man's pleasure, There's nothing for certain, mister, that's for sure." - J. McCutcheon

[StacyCat]

I started out in a semi-swinging context, went to BDSM, and now try to combine both :-)

BDSM to me is so much more than just sexual forplay. The majority of the time (and depending on who I play with and where) I dont even get sexually aroused by it. I use it much more as a physical release than as an arousal tool.

That said, those people that I do have a sexual connection with, I can take it sexually, though that is still hard for me based on one of my earlier experiences.

But, if I am looking for a BDSM swinger connection, i am much more likely to look in the BDSM lifestyle. While a few of the swingers that I have been involved with have expressed an interest, most of them are far lighter players than I am looking for in that aspect.

But, in BDSM, I look for for poly relationships, rather than just swinging.

[Vjklander]

We are fervent members of the Swinging, BDSM and Nudist communities. In any one of them any time you are with a new person/couple you have to discuss what your desires and limits are. While they are different, they do have similarities in that they are expressions of our natural freedom. We share pleasures with each according to their desires. Some swingerrs have joined us at the nudist resort. Some BDSMer's have joined us in the furs. Some Nudists have explored BDSm with us.
The term BDSM is a kluge of Bondage and Discipline (BD), Dominance and Submission (DS), and Sadism and Masochism (SM). One may be in any or all of those areas and to varying degrees. It could be as simple as a wife who dresses as a French Maid to arouse her mate or a couple who enjoy spanking each other.
Whatever you do, if you find it enjoyable and the others sharing pleasures find it enjoyable, go for it.
Here's a question you might want to start a new thread ... oh heck, I'll just start one....
J

[OhioCouple]

Originally posted by TymKeepr
What happened with Mrs. O was, to me, way out of bounds and as you stated would be deeply frowned on by the BDSM community. Sounds like nothing was negotiated beforehand, no safewords set up, etc....BIG NO NO.

I would like to thank everyone who has answered in this thread. I spent several months really distressed over this and doing research and there is no doubt in my mind that what happened that evening had nothing to do with how those that enjoy BDSM conduct themselves.

On one occasion the male half wanted to blind fold and handcuff me, on a whim (prior to the final event) . Nothing discussed beforehand. I said no, BUT, that I might have an interest in the future. This is where I felt guilty for maybe having encouraged that my 'interest' had an effect on this.

Basically what it boils down to is that (in my opinion), it was borderline date rape. Trust issues were broken and I can't be around people that break that area of trust. I am not opposed to some aspects of the the BDSM lifestyle, but I would like for it to be known in advance, with limitations set and not end up not knowing how to effectively say "NO" and I damn sure don't want to walk away feeling like I did that night, physically or emotionally.

[Vjklander]

Mrs o, I think your position is eminently sensible, but I think the issue of trust and limits is beyond and above the BDsm aspects, It applies to all activities. We've seen recent discussions on this as applied to not using condoms when that was stipulated as a requirement beforehand. What about coming in the mouth when that was disallowed. etc etc etc I even saw a thread (maybe on another list) about a woman who was trying to get pregnant and her hubby was sterile. They were not informing their partners that she was trying to get pregnant with the swing male. Talk about breach of trust!!!! I guess it all boils down to the maxim:
Know Thy Partner.
J

[OhioCouple]

You are right Jamie, but as I said, I had to sort this out. I hope I did not offend those that do participate in both lifestyles, I just had to wonder if the two enterwined.

It wouldn't have mattered if I knew prior to that, they were even actually involved in BDSM. The fact of the matter is that trust was breached. I understand that now, but I didn't when it first happened, I felt pretty doggone guilty and deserving.

[Vjklander]

I certainly didn't take any offense. And you certainly should't feel guilty. The others were quite clearly overstepping their bounds. It is quite possible to merge any or all Lifestyles, but as has been stated over and over again on this list, everyone has to communicate well. Good communication is essential to good experiences.
J