[highlander]

Originally Posted by good times

Highlander,

If you are so desperate to validate your point that you put any significance whatsoever in a poll that only 43 people (as of this post) out of all the people that come to this site every day even bothered to vote on, then you are totally delusional.

I'm well aware of the concept of sample bias(I used to work at a major polling research institute). That said, I was personally surprised at the results of this poll-even accounting for Lee's observation that when it comes down to paying for a test, a lot of folks wouldn't do it(even at $60/month which is where I'd put a private, shared results, testing program with existing technology/services).

What I observe here is a difference between people willing to talk about this
topic and the poll results-and what appears a difference between some of the rank and file here and the community leadership.

Get a grip on reality man, most swingers don't even use condoms unless the person they really want to play with insists.

That is true of most people. Most sex acts even among people that are relative strangers don't involve condoms. In fact, in Chicago, most acts of street prostitution don't involve condoms according to one study I saw.

Oddly enough, I have had many playmates that are in the medical profession, they ranged from "will use condoms if we have to" to "if you insist on condoms count us out". Haven't met one in person yet that required condoms for play though.

One of the funnier online stories I heard was from a guy that claimed to be an MD about having sex with a nurse in a hospital while both were working in an AIDS ward-and having an offer of unprotected anal sex. It apparently freaked him out a bit. I never met this guy in person-but his story seemed pretty consistent.

Seriously, I am not trying to be insulting to you, but listen to some folks with experience in the lifestyle, they will tell you your idea will never fly, not a chance, no way, no how. It just isn't going to happen.

That makes it an interesting challenge then doesn't it? Remember, I've actually known real life groups that were non-monogamous that did require STD testing as a group(i.e. More University in the Bay Area, Kerista commune, Rajneesh folks). Maybe it takes a charismatic cult leader to get folks to do this sort of thing. I'd like to think it doesn't.

That is the bottom line. So, if the only way you will play is with regularly tested people, and you can find some, go for it. But don't be surprised if the rest of us in the swinging community think you are nuts. Fact is, if I was as paranoid about std's as you seem to be, I sure as hell wouldn't be swinging.

My great grandfather, and herbalist, used to treat STD's back before the days of penicillin. His protocol was use of snakeroot soon after contact-which is something you still see being suggested in the natural medicine community today. Did it work? I don't know. However, in those days if it didn't, the best conventional medicine would offer was stuff like mercury pellets in the skin. There was another effective drug before pennicillin(in the 1920's or so which was a bit leater), but it required a lot of injections and few folks completed them and it never really caught on.

Anyhow, my grandfather grew up in a household where a typical Sunday morning was a line of mine that had been out whoring the night before and were desperate for some help-and given the likely outcome, I can understand the willingness to go outside the realm of conventional medicine there.

What we are dealing with not is nothing like the syphilis epidemic-yet. I'm not sure which way the wind will blow. What I will say is that even if we get into a situation just as severe as my great-grandfather's day, we'll have plenty of folks playing without condoms-and those will include medical folks.

Anyhow, I tend to see the act of testing and sharing results as something that goes a bit beyond personal responsibility. What some folks miss is that porn actors and swingers are living the dreams of a lot more folks than ever participate. That is the type of thing that inspires envy and emulation.

Even if Lee is right here-and the STD rate(including HSV/Herpes) is VERY low among swingers--and there is simply "no problem", that doesn't mean that these practices are going to necessarily inspire safer behavior in the community at large-and that is the kind of thing that can combine with envy and feeling threatened in positions of moral authority to do stuff to take up a lot of Lee's time in court.

I wish I could see things that made what is going on here a bit clearer from a scientific angle. I find it plausible that just the fact that clubs like the Rooster cater to folks over 25(according to their website), exclude many loaded or obviously sick folks and charge an admission fee might account for much of the lower level of STD's there-I'm not sure how much though.

I learned a few things that were a bit surprising to me while researching for this thread. I was surprised at just how many people appear to lie about test results according to the studies I saw. I was also surprised at just how concentrated transmission of STD's are among the least sexually experienced population(a big chunk of folks pick up an STD with their first sexual experience).

Anyhow, I think that if the right testing technology were created and stuff like liquid condoms got a bit further developed, swinging regularly could actually be safer from an STD standpoint than walking down the street. Even the extreme outliers among us have limited sexual needs-and if someone is playing in a tested club(or a tested porn set) all the time-they aren't out someplace that is a more dangerous environment(at least for that moment). I'm not the "paranoid" one acting like we are only dealing with fast moving STD's like Chlamydia and Gonorrhea for which testing is of limited use-and I'm not a condoms are the panacea type when I see legitimate evidence suggesting condoms are of limited effectiveness around stuff like HSV.

I have been willing to turn down play options from folks that thought sharing of test results was too much to ask-and I've made sure I had condoms around in my space. I've seen first hand just how hard it is to assemble a testing required group. I suspect the job is better suited towards someone younger, better looking and/or more charismatic than I am. I also think that my own willingness/ability to forgo play to put together a testing required group is limited. Now, that said, I don't regret having tried-and continuing to try.