[good times]

Originally Posted by crazykatie

As a result, almost all studies of the disease are anecdotal, at best.

Exactly my point, the opinions you read at such places like the CDC site are heavily laced with speculation and estimates that are heavily influenced by the fact that it is extremely hard to get funding to research these kinds of diseases unless you scare the public into believing they are at risk. At the same time these sites like the CDC site are extremely light on facts backed up by reputable research.

Originally Posted by crazykatie

As to your second point, I have heard and read this particular argument from a number of sources. So, you are not alone in your views. Yet, I find it somewhat counter-intuitive to believe that lifestyle couples (couples who routinely engage in sexual contact outside of a committed long-term relationship) are somehow less likely to be infected than the general population (the majority of whom are involved in some form or monogamous behavior).

While it may seem counter-intuitive to you, it probably will not surprise you that it does not seem counter-intuitive to me. My point was actually that prior to swinging these swingers were involved in monogamous relationships just like much of the general population. So, I fail to see why they should all of a sudden become a higher risk to their play partners when they decide to start swinging.

Originally Posted by crazykatie

I suspect that your view of the relative reproductive health of swingers is clouded (somewhat) by your experience. My bet is that no one with whom you have ever played has ever disclosed to you a herpes infection. What does this mean? That the community of swingers is generally less infected than the rest of society? Or, that the swingers who have the disease are not talking? You apparently presume the former. I, frankly, think you are greatly mistaken in that belief.

Herpes is reported to be highly contagious, so if I am mistaken most of us would already have it. You are correct that a lot of my evaluation of the reliability of these statistics is influenced by my personal experience. The fact is we are active swingers, we know literally hundreds of other swingers in our area, yet none of us have contracted Herpes from playing with others. This either means we are all extremely lucky, or that the statistics are wrong or exaggerated, I believe it is the later.

Originally Posted by crazykatie

The interesting thing is that, like any condition giving rise to a stigma within a society, those who have the condition are generally aware of the others around them in a similar situation. It is only those who do not think they have the condition who are blissfully ignorant of how pervasive it is.

I would agree with this statement in general, as it has been my observation that most people are not interested in giving it much thought, let alone becoming educated enough to recognize these STD's when they see them. On the other hand, some of us have spent a great deal of time studying these things and I don't believe we are any less informed than someone who is afflicted.

Originally Posted by crazykatie

However, I think I now understand why this self delusional behavior exists. Many of you clearly believe that the risk of having protected intercourse with someone who knows that they have the disease is too great to contemplate. If you were each to seriously consider the facts regarding this disease, you would each reach the inescapable conclusion that, statistically, the risk of contracting the disease is far greater from intercourse with someone who doesn’t think they have the disease (or claims that they don’t). So, if your conduct was governed solely by your fair and impartial assessment of the risk, you would end up not playing with anyone. And, of course, that is an unacceptable result. Accordingly, you must delude yourself into believing what you each choose to believe.

That having been said, I completely understand that psychologically there is a big, big difference between knowingly playing with someone who is infected and merely risking the possibility of that being the case. But, the difference has nothing to do with the relative risk of contracting the disease. Rather, it has everything to do with the psychological aspects of knowing that you are playing with fire.

I don’t want to play with anyone who does not want to play with me. But, neither do I think that this society should continue to stigmatize people with the disease. So long as there is a stigma attached to the condition, you can expect that couples with the condition, with no outbreak and on suppressive therapy will describe themselves as "disease free" and that no one will talk openly and honestly about their conditions.

This presupposes that your evaluation of the relative risk is correct. I have studied all of the material on the subject I can get my hands on, and have come to the conclusion that their is no difference in the relative risk between the two scenarios proposed in this poll. In both instances the uninfected person has no idea whatsoever whether the infected person is currently shedding the virus or not. Whether the infected person is on suppressant therapy or not makes no difference, they could still be unknowingly shedding the virus. That people choose to avoid, "playing with fire" is just the prudent way to go, whether it is stigmatization or not, the lowest risk option is to not knowingly play with infected people. I agree that the stigmatization may make some people reluctant to be forthcoming about their condition, that is one of the main reasons why I don't believe that Herpes is as prevalent as the statistics would indicate. If it were, we would see a lot more people contracting it than we do.

Originally Posted by crazykatie

The next time you go to a club or a meet and greet, you should consider the odds. In each room, one in every four or five people have the disease. Even if you believe the statistics are skewed, at least one in every seven or eight people will have the disease. If the thought of playing with someone with the disease is truly unacceptable, how acceptable can the thought of continuing to play really be?

In regards to genital Herpes, I would personally be surprised if the actual statistic among swingers was more than 1 in 100. I have often wondered after reading a lot of studies on this, how they come up with these numbers. My only conclusion is the obvious, that they pick them out of thin air. The reason I say that is because none of the studies, or even all of the studies combined to date, have studied enough of the general population to come up with a statistic that is even close to being a reliable number.