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Bill (of billandsabrina) and I started this discussion in another thread. I think it's an important and interesting enough subject that it deserves a thread of its own. It's a multi-part question...

 

Part 1: How do you feel about the idea that swingers should 'come out of the closet' so to speak, and be more up front about their swinging? What advantages, or disadvantages do you see with that, not just for you as an individual, but for all swingers? Should we swingers attempt to bring swinging into the mainstream, or are we better off keeping things quiet?

 

Part 2: 'Coming out' for swingers has been compared with 'coming out' for homosexuals. Do you feel that this is an accurate comparison, or not? What similarities and/or differences do you perceive between the two groups?

 

Part 3: If you answered, "Yes, swingers should 'come out'" to part 1, what strategies or tactics do you feel would be most effective in the attempt to 'mainstream' swinging?

 

I have to run, but I promise to give my answers to these later. :)

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Originally posted by BradAndJanet

Bill (of billandsabrina) and I started this discussion in another thread. I think it's an important and interesting enough subject that it deserves a thread of its own. It's a multi-part question...

 

Part 1: How do you feel about the idea that swingers should 'come out of the closet' so to speak, and be more up front about their swinging? What advantages, or disadvantages do you see with that, not just for you as an individual, but for all swingers? Should we swingers attempt to bring swinging into the mainstream, or are we better off keeping things quiet?

 

Part 2: 'Coming out' for swingers has been compared with 'coming out' for homosexuals. Do you feel that this is an accurate comparison, or not? What similarities and/or differences do you perceive between the two groups?

 

Part 3: If you answered, "Yes, swingers should 'come out'" to part 1, what strategies or tactics do you feel would be most effective in the attempt to 'mainstream' swinging?

 

I have to run, but I promise to give my answers to these later. :)

 

Answers

 

Part 1; everything in it's own time, we are a very conflicted society, especially in the states. we flaunt sexuality in advertising , media and the like,,,,,,,but as a society we are relative prudes. As an individual couple, we would be extremely careful of who knew much of our private lives. swingers, lifestylers, whatever, ARE , in my opinion, "coming out" and have been so slowly through the internet, media, and free exchange of information. We found our way to this board , didn't we? IMHO, society doesn't change rapidly, but over time, and as a whole, is not currently ready for the ideas and activities that those in the lifestyle have normalized in their own lives. maybe someday

 

part 2 ; both are certainly a "coming out" but as I see it, one is a gender preference issue, sexual orientation and one is of monogamy. mainstream society has issues with both, but certainly most societies still support sanctioned, monogamous relationships between two people,,,that relationship is just now gaining more recognition for same sex unions,,,,,,but it is still two different issues

 

part 3; didn't really answer yes, but I do want to comment here. I think that as a society, we have sex,,,,,and well for that matter love,all twisted up, still seem as perverted even. how many were raised feeling sex was bad, or dirty, or had to be secretive,,,shameful,,,,,,,how about self pleasuring?,,,,,,,,,and to what pain does that lead,,,problems in relationships?,,,,I think that those who have worked hard and succeeded in "untwisting" things for themselves should live by example wherever possible and be a guide and help to those who still struggle, whether that is swinging or leading a monogamous life

 

just my 2 cents

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RMX laid out the basic issue with coming out. We are still wrestling with our Puritanical/Victorian roots. Monogamy is still the attempted norm, but looking at divorce rates proves my long held opinion that homo sapiens are not meant to be sexually monogamous.

 

Is this similar to the homosexuality. Again, radical changes in sexual behavior occur gradually. Do we try and keep our swinging activity secret from our kids? Yes.... not because we are ashamed, but because we don't want them to inadvertently say something to others in our family who may not be understanding.

 

So yes swingers please do come out. But unfortunately this couple will not be leading the pack.

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1. It would be nice, but not nice enough for me to go on a march. I'm not sure what would be gained. Bonus rates on quadruple occupancy hotelrooms?

 

2. No its not an accurate comparison. Two married couples out for a night on the town, and dancing with each others partners won't raise an eyebrow. Try that with 2 men ;) My lifestyle wouldn't change if swinging became main stream. Hell it could be a bad thing if swinging became the norm, we have a lot of friends who we like to hang out with but wouldn't want to swing with. Just think if they all asked :)

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Um, first to be historically accurate, Victorians were swingers!

 

It's a myth that they were prim and proper.

 

What happened behind closed doors was considered private, and not something the public had any need to know.

 

Currently, and I mean today-- how else can any of us share openly here unless we do so anonymously?

 

If anyone here has read the biography of Winston Churchills' mother, Lady Randolph Churchill (who was an American) you will know what I mean. Look up her biography, Jennie:the life of Lady Randolph Churchill [her maiden name was Jeannette Jerome] by Ralph G. Martin. Make sure you check the notes at the back of the book. Most of the material about who-did-who was discovered from private journals.

 

The Victorian generation swung hard-core!

 

I admire them for having the good sense, class, and savvy to keep it all under wraps. It assured their complete privacy and freedom to do whatever consenting adults wanted to do without the censure of public opinion.

 

It's so much easier to read about these folks now that their children and grandchildren are long gone. If they had 'come out' while still alive, we'd still be hearing about it.

 

Keeping personal decisions like this private seems in my opinion, not only smart, but necessary.

 

I don't expect the world to change it's opinion of me because of my sexual activities...but on the other hand, why give the public a picture window on my life? The public doesn't have a right to know, and I have a right to pursue a lifestyle that suits me -- in privacy.

 

---Are we so needy of approval that everyone must validate and agree with everything we do?

 

Why invite judgment, ridicule, harassment, and all the rest of it if it isn't necessary?

 

I honestly don't see how 'coming out' will benefit any without hurting most.

 

Thanks for listening :)

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Do I think swingers should come out of the closet... Not necessarily... if you want to come out about it... fine ... but there should not be any pressure to do so.

 

above all that they shouldn't be forcefully "outed" as happened for some gay people... which was part of the history of the gay community (not that anyone is suggesting this for swingers)

 

but I do think it is gradually becoming more and more acceptable and main stream.

 

threesomes and swinging are receiving a fair bit of media air play... granted the point is for titilating and entertaining television ... but it is still putting the idea out there.

 

... I don't think the time that it will be openly acceptable is that far off...... it will become just one of those mildly kinky pastimes that interest some people... like handcuffs or foot fetish or water sports ...

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Should swingers come out of the closet? No, we do not believe that is necessary or even desirable. Ours, particularly the American society is very prudish. and is not ready to accept the reality of two couples may swap partners for consensual sexual intercourse. It does, however, to some extent condone and accept adultery-witness large percentage of both men and women (stats say 60%) who engage in extramarital sex without the spouse's knowledge or consent.

 

Like someone commented, the media uses sexually suggestive shows to sell merchandise. They may shows that show swinging for titillation and make the almighty dollar on which their livelihood (and big bucks for owners/executives) depends. We do not need media or society approval to enjoy sexual variety and fulfillment that swinging lifestyle provides.

 

Again, swinging is losing the stigma imposed by the society and for sure gaining acceptance slowly. We swingers are the elite and pathbreakers. Let us keep it that way and enjoy our sensuality and the thrill that connecting with varied sexual partners brings to our lives.

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Ummm.... no.

 

Both the wife and I work in very "professional" occupations where appearance is important. It would make our professional occupations much more difficult if we "came out of the closet" and made it general knowledge that we are swingers.

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I don't really think that it is that important for swingers as a community to "come out". After all sex on any level is generally a private act.

 

I think its more important that we can congregate together, whether it be an on-premise club or a house party without the fear of local government intervention.

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Originally posted by BradAndJanet

Part 1: How do you feel about the idea that swingers should 'come out of the closet' so to speak, and be more up front about their swinging? What advantages, or disadvantages do you see with that, not just for you as an individual, but for all swingers? Should we swingers attempt to bring swinging into the mainstream, or are we better off keeping things quiet?

 

Part 2: 'Coming out' for swingers has been compared with 'coming out' for homosexuals. Do you feel that this is an accurate comparison, or not? What similarities and/or differences do you perceive between the two groups?

 

Part 3: If you answered, "Yes, swingers should 'come out'" to part 1, what strategies or tactics do you feel would be most effective in the attempt to 'mainstream' swinging?

 

In response to Part 1: I see nothing to be gained and a hell of lot at risk from a public, repeated proclamation. Prior to our entry into the lifestyle, we did not post a sign in a front yard proclaiming our fondness for oral sex. It is [ludicrously] against the law in our state and many other states. It too, like swinging is a victimless crime and I imagine it became a law from the intent of legislators to restrict homosexual activity, never dreaming of the future popularity for heterosexuals. Regardless, no one is attempting to prevent us from having oral sex with one another, so the law is nothing we campaign to have changed.

 

The kinder view of swinging from society in general is that it is incomprehensible, strange, and maybe a bit disgusting. The stronger view [and the more often and loudly proclaimed] is that it is reprehensible and dangerously threatening to the community's moral standards.

 

The danger of public proclamation, be it to family, friends, neighbors or employers is that it will to some degree alter the prior relationship. Some few may accept, but not with comprehension - since it is not their choice. It is yours. Those few would simply be acknowledging your right to that choice. Some would end whatever their relationship with you may be. It is unfortunately liable to be the employer - who will, of course, find another reason.

 

I believe one of the very real possible dangers is that society in general [and local law in particular] could question the welfare of the children living in the home of swingers. It is certainly within the realm of possibility to recognize that an investigation could result in a legal battle to retain custody. It is childishly naive not to recognize that such a thing absolutely could happen.

 

We have found no impedients to pursuing our lifestyle interests as a private part of our lives. I cannot ascertain a logical rational reason for our private lives to become public knowledge any more now than we have ever felt there was.

 

Part 2: I do not believe the comparison with homosexuals coming out is an accurate comparison. I feel that a homosexual is born with that particular sexual identity. It is as much a part of their identity as their fingerprints.

 

Swinging is a CHOICE of activity - not a sexual identity. As many can attest, there is an extensive thought process necessary to arrive at the choice. Some come to it easier than others who find they must learn a "new way" of looking at traditionally held values of behavior. But it is a conscious choice, never the less. And part of the thought process is the mature acceptance that it is diametrically opposed to traditional societal standards. The choice is made individually - by that person, for that person.

 

Gays have had legal obstacles to overcome to be granted the rights most swingers have as a matter of course. Same sex partners do not have the legal responsiblities for each other that traditional partners do. Lifemates have been prevented from inheriting from one another. There are only a handful of companies that recognize same sex alliances and offer benefit coverage for a same sex partner.

 

Texas is a "community property" state for husbands and wives. Each of you owns equally, each of you owes equally, without further court time being required to determine such. There is not a long drawn out probate procedure when one half of the couple passes away.

 

Same sex life mates do not automatically or otherwise own or owe or inherit unless legal documents have been drawn to provide for such.

 

All of these rights and many more were very real reasons for "gay rights" movements and the "coming out" in larger and larger numbers so that it would be recognized this was no small group of people who were being discriminated against.

 

There is no similarity or impediment for swingers. No lack of rights as partners. No extraneous legal documentation to establish the validity of the relationship between partners.

 

Again, nothing to be gained. No rational logical reason to "come out".

 

Part 3: N/A

 

Side note: Thanks for a thought provoking thread, Brad. You took what could have been another mud-slinging battle and turned into an avenue for expressing opinions.

 

The above are just that - my opinions. :)

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1. As nice as it would be for the swinging lifestyle to exist within the mainstream, we don't feel that anyone (swinger or non-swinger) should feel obligated to share his or her personal life with the rest of the world. Many swingers have very legitimate reasons for maintaining low profiles, so they should be entitled to keep their lifestyle private. Personally, we aren't ashamed of our status as swingers so we are willing to admit it to anyone who asks. However, because we know that many mainstream Americans look negatively toward swinging, we don't wear our lifestyle on our sleeves.

 

2. Swingers and homosexuals do share the dishonor of being persecuted for their sexual practices. However, the two groups have one glaring difference. For most swingers, swinging is just a part time recreational activity that has no bearing on the rest of their lives. Homosexuals, however, exist in their condition for their entire lives. Like swingers, homosexuals should never feel obligated to "come out," but they do have far more to gain in their attempt to achieve mainstream acceptance.

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It's not safe to 'come out' as a swinger.. not while others in this 'community' feel little or no compunction to 'outting' someone if they choose to.

 

I DO compare declaring myself a swinger to all and sundry as similar to a gay person doing the same. it's frowned upon, many people, including self proclaimed swingers, don't 'get it'. That for some it's a lifestyle.

 

Plus.. I hate parades :D

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Wow!!! Some of my faith in Swingers being open minded is returning. My reasons for wanting Swingers to fight for the right to do what we do is for discouraging possible future discrimination. I think that right now during our "War on Terror" we need to be especially diligent to not be accused of being threats to national security. We have had government funded witch hunts in this country before, and will again. McCarthyism comes to mind. Given the anti-sex attitude of our current Attorney General, and some new weapons with which to assault civil rights (Patriot Act) we could be targets of a new age of McCarthyism. Maybe not individuals who post here, but webmasters such as Julie could find themselves in the crosshairs. If though the government wanted to single out an individual that posts here it wouldn't be hard because of IP addresses. For those of you that do not know what an IP address is think of it this way. The mailman has your street address to find you house. Your IP address gives the location of the computer that sent anything broadcast over the web. Each and every post on this board has info leading to the computer it was sent from. There are ways around this happening, but how many of us have skills to do it? People who engage in "deviant" activities as most of us agree are looked at suspiciously. I don't wear a "Tin Hat" McCarthyism did exist, and we should remember it lest we become victims of it.

 

Quote

 

Originally posted by wrnakedru

 

Prior to our entry into the lifestyle, we did not post a sign in a front yard proclaiming our fondness for oral sex.

 

 

See my above lesson on IP addresses to realize you just put a sign in your cyberspace front yard. I knew of this long before I came across this board, and made the choice to do so anyway.

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Originally posted by wrnakedru

...Side note: Thanks for a thought provoking thread, Brad. You took what could have been another mud-slinging battle and turned into an avenue for expressing opinions.

...

Thank you! I believe that is one of my jobs as a moderator. :)

 

I'm overwhelmed with the thought and time y'all have put into your answers. Here are mine:

 

1) In general, I think it's a bad idea for us to be too "in your face" about our activities. As so many have pointed out, society (and I speak of American society here) as a whole generally frowns upon swinging as something only 'freaks' do (and I wear that label proudly :lol: ), and some people would be downright hostile to us, try to get us fired, take our children away and ruin our lives.

 

But, I know what Bill is getting at here, and I support his basic idea that we would be better off if (and it's a big if!) society would view us a little more benignly. However, change will only come slowly, in small steps and I think that we must be careful not to provoke a backlash against us.

 

The biggest advantage I see is that if swinging became more mainstream and accepted by most of society, we would not have to fear that backlash. If more people understood what we do and why we do it, I believe we would see more tolerance for our lifestyle. It would also make finding swing partners a bit easier if people could more freely speak about it. :)

 

2) There are some parallels I see between our situations. We both risk embarrassment or worse trouble because of our sex lives. However, the biggest difference I see, as someone has pointed out, is that the reward for the risk is much greater for homosexuals. We can go out and be with our swinger friends, have a good time and be affectionate with them without raising an eyebrow.

 

Homosexuals have a much more difficult time just living their lives when 'closeted'. Their sexual orientation is a bigger part of who they are than being a swinger is to us. So, they're willing to take the risk and 'come out' because the reward of being able to live openly with their partner of choice is well worth it. Many swingers do not feel the rewards are as great for us.

 

3) I feel that effective strategies are those that are small steps, not big, bold ones. Y'all are doing something good simply by posting your thoughts here. I'm sure that there have been curious guests who have wandered in here and have gone away impressed by the depth of thought that goes into swinging.

 

Some of us might be able to subtly talk to our 'straight' friends when the subject come up. I did this the other night by talking about the Nip and Tuck episode I watched, expressing my opinion and asking what others thought. I didn't 'out' myself, but was able to perhaps give people something to think about.

 

As clubgoers, and particularly as club owners, we can help to make sure we're never viewed as 'troublemakers' in the community by adhering to local laws and being sensitive to local mores. And, we can try to get those local laws changed, where possible.

 

Finally, I wanted to respond to what Bill said about IP addresses. Yes, in theory, you can be identified by your IP. That's how the RIAA knew who to sue recently. But, it took a lot of doing and involved courts and subpeonas. Although we should always be vigilant, we're a long way from having to worry that we'll be targeted for simply talking about swinging. The judiciary still understands the 1st Amendment, and no judge is going to issue a subpoena to Julie in order to get our IP addresses. I'm not at all worried about that, at least today... ;)

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Originally posted by bill&sabrina

McCarthyism comes to mind. Given the anti-sex attitude of our current Attorney General, and some new weapons with which to assault civil rights (Patriot Act) we could be targets of a new age of McCarthyism.

 

We think you're over-reacting a bit. We're not worried about this because...

 

a) While Ashcroft is definitely prudish, it's a good bet that he has better things to do with his time then "crack down" on a bunch of Swingers. And while your dislike of AG Ashcroft is obvious, and you clearly disagree with his politics, he's not stupid. I'm sure while he personally may disagree (or even be disgusted) with the Swinging lifestyle, he realizes that he doesn't have to worry about a couple of swingers hijacking a plane and flying them into buildings.

 

b) While we certainly don't advertise that we're in the Lifestyle, it's not a State Secret, either. If they really wanted to know, they could just check our financial records and see our local club membership dues. Or subpoena those same clubs and discover our name in their membership roster.

 

c) Our sexual activity, at least in Pennsylvania, is not illegal in any way. Even if Pennsylvania authorities wanted to "bust our balls", there's simply nothing in Title 18 (PA Consolidated Statues - Crime Code) that they could charge us with. Even "Lewd and Lascivious Conduct" requires an "intent to alarm, offend, or annoy".

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First off, not to put too fine a point on it, but Bill pumps more shit than a six-inch sewer pipe. And yes, Bill, you ARE a Tin Hat, black helicopter conspiracy nut if you think John Ashcroft or anyone else in the Bush administration gives a rat's ass if you swing. And I say this as someone knows all too well what the Fed's technical capabilities are, and who has forgotten more about data networking than you will ever know (I'll start worrying if/when the likes of Hillary Rodman and her ilk take power, as they actually DO have a history of violating the privacy rights of those they don't like, unlike Ashcroft and company).

 

But I digress...

 

After reading through this thread, it appears that some of you get it, and some don't. Wrnakedru laid it out the best (although she seems unaware that the Texas sodomy laws, however silly, not to mention unenforced and unenforceable as they were, have been overturned by the Supreme Court recently), but now it is the Bear's turn...:)

 

Insofar as this business of "coming out" as swingers is concerned, the answer is basically "no", and for a really very fundamental reason. A lot has been made of how our society has "hangups" about sex, etc. The reality is that, overall, we are not all THAT repressed, and never have been. The only difference between today and, say, the 1950s (gasp!) is that people were a lot more circumspect about their sexual practices than today. Indeed, as Night Goddess pointed out, there is nothing new about swinging, and you can even go back further in time than the Victorian era, the Hellfire Club, of which Benjamin Franklin was a member, being one even earlier example of swinging in the past.

 

However, the problem with advertising your swinging is that, yes, you WILL run into some problems with others in society, because the reality is that swinging goes against some very basic, low-level, "lizard brain" hard-wiring that all humans have about sexuality, especially women. If you think about it, it's more likely that a woman will get into a major twist if she finds out about your swinging than a man would.

 

After all, men are hard-wired to spread their DNA around as much as possible, and so would, on balance, be natural swingers...at least up to a point (said point being an example of that hard-wiring I mentioned; "Yeah, I'll fuck your wife, but keep your dick out of mine, you miserable pudknocker!"...:)

 

Women, on the other hand, are selective about who they mate with, and are not prone to give it up to just anyone, and further will tend to stick to just one mate (or very few). This is an evolutionary imperative in humans, which means it's a strong one, that goes back literally tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of years.

 

(Consider the following datum, boys and girls; if you take all of human literature, from the "Epic of Gilgamesh" to date, and boil it all down to it's most basic essentials, nearly ALL of it is about a female choosing her mate from a group of male suitors. How's that for a fundamental characteristic?)

 

This evolutionary imperative about sex and reproduction is why there are so few swingers among the general population. And it's also why Brad is correct when he says it's unwise to be too "in your face" about our lifestyle, although not for the reasons he thinks. The adverse reaction you are apt to get has very little to do with your culture, as I have indicated above. Even in the most sexually "liberated" societies, you don't hear just a whole lot of public celebration of swinging, certainly not as we practice it (couples, BOTH male and female, engaging in recreational sex with multiple partners in a variety of settings), and this is the reason why.

 

(Along about now, some dingdong is going to jump up and say this is all wrong, and cite some obscure culture somewhere that in the main does practice freewheeling swinger-style sex. To which my answer is, the first rule is that there are nearly always EXCEPTIONS to every rule, especially where human behavior is concerned. However, these EXCEPTIONS do NOT invalidate the damn rule in the first place. Got it?)

 

It takes a lot of brainpower to override that lizard brain hard wiring that dictates how most humans conduct themselves sexually, and so to be able to swing. Bunny and I have long been of the opinion that most swingers (even some of the trailer-trashy ones you see on some of the swinger sites) are possessed of higher than usual intelligence for that reason (yeah, and that even includes the tin hat "George W. Bush and John Ashcroft are the Anti-Christ incarnate" crowd).

 

Therefore it is because of this well-nigh instinctual adverse reaction most people (especially women) have to swinging that I would not be inclined to advertise the fact that we are swingers.

 

Which brings us to the comparison of swinging to the "coming out" and all that of the gay community.

 

People, this notion is sheer idiocy. For one thing, as has been pointed out, we swingers CHOOSE to engage in this lifestyle. Homosexuals do not. Regardless of what the cause may be, homosexuals have no choice (nor do true bisexuals) because this is how their brains are configured insofar as how and with whom he/she will have sex. And this is something that, try as you might, you really can't override. Bottom line; gays have no choice, we do.

 

However, having said that, homosexuals are also bucking this very same neurological hard-wiring in others who are not of their orientation, with this business of wearing their sexuality on their shirtsleeves. A bit of history is in order...

 

While it had been building for many years prior to this, by the early 1970s, in the heyday of the sexual revolution, society as a group basically decreed that they didn't really care what homosexuals did. So "go ahead and do it, we don't give a rat's ass" was society's overall opinion.

 

However, having said that, society as a whole really didn't want their collective nose rubbed in the fact that Bruce Gayboy's favorite sexual activity was sucking his boyfriend's cock, not to mention fucking said boyfriend in the ass either.

 

There is such a thing as "too much information". Even with the most liberal, "open-minded" (so open-minded that their brain fell out), "celebrate diversity", "Ramsay Clark for President", "the Iraq war happened so Dick Cheney's Halliburton could get all those contracts" tin hat wearer type, if that person is straight, in their heart of hearts they will find the notion of homosexual activity revolting, just as gays find heterosexual activity. And if you keep putting forth something that the other person not only does not want to hear about, but actually finds distasteful, eventually you are going to be told to stuff it. This is known as human nature.

 

To me and a lot of other people, someone who insists on foisting their sexual proclivities on others, regardless of what those proclivities may be, is behaving in an undignified manner, to say the least. And it doesn't matter if that person is gay or a swinger. It's the sort of thing you might expect from some hormone-saturated teenage boy, not a responsible adult.

 

Think about it; sex, regardless of what sort, is something that the average person spends, maybe, two or three hours a week (if even that much), doing. Not only that, but for about 95% of the populace, this is a PRIVATE and PERSONAL activity, not something that is discussed at length in casual conversation.

 

We don't know about anyone else, but while we enjoy swinging, it does not define who we are as human beings. That being the case, we see no reason to advertise to all and sundry that we like getting together with certain, very select, close friends and engaging in sexual play.

 

To do something so tawdry (as Wrnakedru put it, it's like putting a sign in the front yard saying we like oral sex) would be undignified in the extreme. It would far more likely to upset our audience than anything else, not to mention the fact that, on top of everything else, unless those people are directly involved in our sex play, whatever it may be, it's really none of their fucking business to start with.

 

It's called "choose your battles", people. And no one has demonstrated that this particular one ("coming out" as swingers) is worth fighting.

 

-- Bear

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I only said swingers could be the target of Government sanctioned persecution. I guess though that McCarthyism didn't happen did it. A man more wise than I once said "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." That wise man was Benjamin Franklin. Maybe everything I have said is a bunch of shit, or far fetched. When buying insurance you buy to protect against the unthinkable. That is all I am asking for, and what would be the harm in making sure nothing I said came to pass. I know the answer to that question you would have to get off your lazy ass and actually have to do something. All I am asking for is this community to come together for respect, and rights to do what we do without being hindered. Is that really a reason to attack me as was done by bear_n_bunny? All because I have a real desire for no one to have to face discrimination because of swinging. So lets do nothing to keep from being discriminated against, and hope that people don't do it out of the goodness of their hearts.

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Originally posted by bill&sabrina

I only said swingers could be the target of Government sanctioned persecution. I guess though that McCarthyism didn't happen did it.

 

Two major things wrong with this hypothesis, though.

 

1) "McCarthyism" was based around a person's political allegiances. Remember the famous question "Are you, or have you ever been, a Communist?" McCarthyism was more about rooting out perceived traitors and spies bent on overthrowing the American government during the height of the Cold War. It was never about a person's sexual preferences.

 

2) In the 20/20 vision of hindsight and history, it turned out that McCarthy was right most of the time.

 

A man more wise than I once said "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." That wise man was Benjamin Franklin.

 

Not to nitpick, but the actual quote is "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

George Santayana (1863 - 1952), The Life of Reason, Volume 1, 1905

 

Maybe everything I have said is a bunch of shit, or far fetched. When buying insurance you buy to protect against the unthinkable.

 

I disagree. When buying insurance, it's to protect you against the unfortunate and unlikely, but definitely thinkable. We have automobile insurance against the very real possibility of a collision. We have Homeowner's insurance against a unlikely but real possibility of a flood, or a tree falling on my house, or a fire.

 

We don't have, save, Volcano Insurance for our house because that is unthinkable. We don't have UFO Abduction Insurance because that is also unthinkable. Purchasing insurance against the unthinkable is foolish and a waste of money.

 

All I am asking for is this community to come together for respect, and rights to do what we do without being hindered.

... (SNIP) ...

All because I have a real desire for noone to have to face discrimination because of swinging.

 

But you're missing the point. There is no tangible benefit to what you're proposing, because..

 

1) I don't discuss my sex life with my co-workers, and they don't discuss their sex life with me. It's called professionalism. It doesn't matter if we're straight or gay, Swingers or "mundanes". It's a private, personal affair that we discuss with a very very select group of close friends.

 

2) Advertising that we're Swingers has no positive benefits, and many negatives. Many people I now work and interact with will treat me much differently. My sexual life will be forefront on their minds when I have to interact with. Instead of being "Chris", I'll be "That Swinger Guy" or "The Guy Who Lets Other Guys Fuck His Wife".

 

3) I face no discrimination based on our lifestyle choice right now because, as Bear said, it's nobody's fucking business except those we play with and our very close friends. Anybody in our society who defines themselves based on their sexual orientation or preferences is going to be ostracized. I have a co-worker who's gay. It's no big deal... he's not ashamed of it, and he doesn't try to hide it. He gets along great with all of his colleagues. But he doesn't come to work everyday (using his own words here) "wearing a pink tutu with flames shooting out of my ass" making his homosexuality his defining point. Instead, he makes the fact that he's a hard worker and competent professional his defining point, as it should be.

 

There is simply nothing to gain by making the fact that we're swingers our "defining point".

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Originally posted by bill&sabrina

A man more wise than I once said "Those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." That wise man was Benjamin Franklin.

 

But while we're on the subject, there is a Benjamin Franklin quote which I feel is relevant to this discussion:

 

Three may keep a secret, if two of them are dead.

 

;)

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Ok, I think it up to the individuals as to coming out of the closet so to speak. I myself will talk to other swingers but for my family and friends in main stream NO! My family is very agaianst anything of this sort they feel it is wrong and it would most definatly cause problems in our relationship.

 

For #2 I think that although there are many people out there who feel homosexuality is also wrong it is more widely acceppted and as was stated in a few answers many of these relationships are monogomist. I have no problems accepting either lifestyle but feel that the monogomy issue is still a big issue with alot of people in the world today. Maybe someday Swinging won't be such a private issue either but for now I'm keeping it secret EXSPECIALY from my kids i don't want them to have concerns or issues or any reprecutions from the lifestyle my husband and i have chosen.

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angihay brings up an interesting point about the kids. While we do not have children, and can not speak with any position of "authority" on the matter, we feel that when the children reach a certain age, when they would be able to understand (16-ish?), the Lifestyle should be explained to them and they should be let into the secret of what their parents are doing.

 

Because, frankly, they're probably going to figure it out anyway. Kids aren't dumb, you know.

 

We've known several couples who have had this chat with their children when they reach that age, explaining what it is, why we do it, and the concepts of personal choice, responsibility, mutual respect and communication. Every single teenager seemed to handle it just fine (with the prerequisite "yuck factor" of having the mental image of Mom and Dad having sex.... especially with other people!), and didn't go out and tell the entire world, nor start a Young Swinger's Club and become teenage lifestylers. Actually, they all appeared to be quite adjusted, and matured into responsible adults.

 

On that note: when I was a teenager, my best friend found out, quite accidentally, that his parents were swingers. Apparently they left their membership card to a local club sitting out on their dresser, and he saw it. Being a bright lad, he put two and two together. I was the only soul he told, and we were both fascinated and, frankly, freaked out about it ("Your parents are swappers? Ick!")

 

17 years later, we're both happily married to beautiful and wonderful women and both in the Lifestyle.

 

But I also believe that parents who own firearms should teach their children how to safely use said firearms once they're old enough to understand right from wrong. Once you take the mystique and "forbidden factor" out of them, they no longer become objects of curiosity or fascination. But that's a topic for another discussion.

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We are young enough that any kids are less then 6 years old so it hasn't become an issue yet, BUT I am not sure if it IS good to tell your teenage kids.

 

This is the age of the 'mother joke' and the like, and knowing that 'uncle' Tim you knew since you were a little kid is also fucking your mother MIGHT not sit well.

 

I think girls would handle this a lot better then boys, but still I don't think its necessary they know.

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I don't think we as swingers would benefit from worldwide publication of our sexual practices. Children, especially mine, should not be privy to such activities, ridicule by govt organizations is not one thing i enjoy and frankly why would you want to set yourself up for a fall if the way it is is fine...

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It took me a while to find this again, but here is a connection made between pornography and terrorism.

 

https://www.pravdareport.com/russia/18752-Terrorism/

 

Pornography is sexual deviance. At least the mainstream likes to tell us that. If one group of sexual deviants are in cahoots with terrorist's why can't other; swingers for example. The article looks to me to be sensationalism, but my point is that a connection between terrorists and sexual deviance was made. However untrue the connection might be doesn't matter as long as it does its job and causes a public outcry against the intended target. Gotta go I hear the sounds of rotor's in the distance.

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As per my usual, one post or thread gets me to thinking about something else. So the most recent...

 

In another recently active and somewhat heated thread, and on other threads as well, some members have held firm to their beliefs that swingers should come out of their closets...become banner-waving proponents of the lifestyle...that sort of thing. Others have felt there is too much risk to their personal and professional selves to risk such, and I admit to being in that camp. But beyond our personal reasons for wanting to come out or stay closeted, I want to know...

 

If swinging was "accepted" by society as a whole...nobody would bat an eye if you announced you were a swinger...what would this do to swinging? I feel that part of the "attraction" of swinging to some is the "forbidden"....the "naughtiness" ...maybe just the idea of involving ourselves in something that is not acceptable by most. What about the fantasy aspect that is discussed so frequently? Wouldn't that remove that attraction? I mean...hmmmm...Friday night...nothing to do....think I'll just mosey down to Bennigans and swing with a bunch of people. Ho hum.

 

And what about clubs? There are relatively few clubs that swingers can attend, but if you could attend a club and swing as easily as you can attend Bennigans, with no repercussions, would you still want to go and participate? Wouldn't it remove some of the "mystique" of swinging?

 

Just wondering....- EBF :)

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The people at work know I am Heathen, Nudist, Swinger, Eroticist. Doesn't seem to bother them, except for the ChristNazi. Doesn't seem to bother my clearances either. We don't share pleasures with just anybody y'know, but if we found someone interesting at Bennigan's it would be nice tojust go for it. The 'mystique' doesna mean much for us although it does for some. If mystique, taboo, and naughtiness mean all that much to you, dress up as Ronald McDonald (or female equivalent) and let us have at your Sesame Seed Buns.

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So, Vjk...you don't have problems at work, with clearances, etc. Do you have any opinions on why that is so while others (myself included) either know or feel that we would? What do you suppose makes your circumstances different? Is it your attitude alone...maybe regional attitudes? Different sorts of cultural backgrounds?

 

As for the "mystique" thing...I may be totally off course, but I somehow believe if that portion or the fantasy of swinging was removed, the whole concept would lose some of it's flavor for many. Could be wrong tho'...that's the reason I asked the questions.

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Lets say America became a lot more open to sex.

 

People were having sex in the park.

 

While waiting in line girls were giving guys BJ's to pass the time.

 

That sort of thing.

 

Would I still have sex? You bet I would. It might dull it down a bit, but the urge is still there.

 

So yes we would still swing if it were more mainstream.

 

On the other hand, if swinging were that accepted you would have problems with saying no and hurting feelings. My best friend and his wife are NOT attractive, so I'm very glad they never asked.

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Quote
Originally posted by Elusive BiFem

So, Vjk...you don't have problems at work, with clearances, etc. Do you have any opinions on why that is so while others (myself included) either know or feel that we would? What do you suppose makes your circumstances different? Is it your attitude alone...maybe regional attitudes? Different sorts of cultural backgrounds?

 

As far as clearances go, the rules are simple regarding lifestyles, as long as you disclose your activities to the security office thats all there is to it. If any info is made public you can sue the security office.

As far as the office mates, I don't advertise, but when they ask what I did on the weekend I tell them enough. ;) Could be we went to a nudist resort or a play party. We have got a few to go to the nudist place so far. None have gone to a play party though. The ChristNazi won't talk to me anyway since I wear my Thor's Hammer.

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I totally agree; part of what makes swinging so fun is the naughtiness or 'taboo' nature of it all

 

besides, sex is private...I certainly don't tell my church friends that I like it doggy-style...why would I tell that I like it from 2 men at once....

 

hehe

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Originally posted by Elusive BiFem

And what about clubs? There are relatively few clubs that swingers can attend, but if you could attend a club and swing as easily as you can attend Bennigans, with no repercussions, would you still want to go and participate? Wouldn't it remove some of the "mystique" of swinging?

 

Just wondering...

It would certainly better than the three hour roundtrip we currently have even if all we want to do is attend a get-together. We cancelled our New Years plans this year because of the drive. So, we vote for Benniswinger clubs in every town.:claps:

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EBF, I think you make an outstanding point. One of the things that I love knowing is that our little subculture is "special" and that I have first-hand knowledge of the "inner sanctum".

 

When we go to see our close friends, our family, when we go to public places, it's one of those things that Lora and I can giggle like little kids (ok no comments!) at the fact that we are who we are, and the "super hero identity" type, where underneath the outer clothes lies the big "S" for SWINGER!!!

 

Do we live a lie? Absolutely not. We are who we are, and we are not ashamed of it. If someone sees us on a site and questions us, we don't run and hide from who we are. But that doesn't mean that we walk around with chips on our shoulders, being braggarts that we are in the lifestyle. That's our business, just like our financial status, our marital problems that we may have from time to time, etc. That is so not the intention of this lifestyle, and while society may not accept it as a whole, we aren't resentful of anyone who doesn't believe in swinging or the benefits of such. It's just like anything else with people that you meet in the lifestyle--everyone has their preferences, and if yours don't mesh with theirs, so be it. Diversity is what makes this lifestyle what it is.

 

As far as the question about it losing its mystique, I don't think it would have any effect on the current "activity" level of swingers or the lifestyle itself. I mean, think about this--we all go to movies, we all go out to eat, we all have sex with our spouses (if we are married), does that mean that because society accepts those things that they are any less special or have less meaning? Absolutely not. It's all about what your interest level is and passion for something that makes a difference. I highly doubt that anyone is in this lifestyle for the mystique itself, so I then doubt that even if it became mainstream that it would affect our personal involvement.

 

My god - the possibilities would be endless - swinger amusement parks would be the wave of the future!

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We think "forbidden fruit" is part of the fun of swinging but we'd probably not give it up if intermarital sex were accepted.

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Originally posted by b_and_sc

besides, sex is private...I certainly don't tell my church friends that I like it doggy-style...why would I tell that I like it from 2 men at once....

:rofl:

 

My second genuine belly-laugh of 2004!!!

 

We both entered into this arena to add additional spice to our relationship, and some of that spice would definitely dissipate if this became a wide-spread activity, embraced by society. We've never seen the lifestyle as 'a lifestyle' in the way that some do, and it's unlikely that we ever will. It's a source of frisson for us, and if everyone was doing it, some of that frisson would fade.

 

Would it fade enough to stop us doing it? Probably not. After all, it would still be pleasurable, even if it wasn't 'taboo'. As Vjk says, there's plenty of fantasy out there.

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Originally posted by frenzb4sex

My god---the possibilities would be endlesss--swinger amusement parks would be the wave of the future!

 

Swinger Amusement Park!

I love it!

 

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Frenzb4sex, we completely agree with your comments.

 

And following up on your idea, swinger amusement parks would be great. Just think of the marketing promotions.....Doggie Days.....Wet 'n Wild Weekends.....Double O (Oral/Orgy) Week.....Missionary Sundays.....Double Date Tuesdays.....Triple Play Thursdays..... Wow, what a summer that would be!!!!!

 

We also agree with Vjk. There is more than enough fantasy out there. However, our occupations would be in grave jeopardy if our participation were made known. We know we are among the enlightened, but few in mainstream America are so enlightened. That is the mystique for us.

 

Brit_Pair. Faded frisson would be unbearable and totally unacceptable!!!!!

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Wow... a Swinger's Amusement park... In my wife's words: FUNNNNN!!!!!

 

Screw the mystique, this would make 1.5 hour ride lines worth it.

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