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Chickn70

Starting to talk and hit a roadblock

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Hey all! Newbie here! Recently the girlfriend and I have started discussing fantasies and turns out she's actually suggested swinging. We've been dating for 2 years, relationship rocks, the sex is fantastic and not in short supply (I can't keep up) and we talk openly and honestly and really, don't have a complaint at all. Over the course of the discussions she's asked me why I'd want to let someone screw her. Bear in mind, she has this fantasy of being with two men herself. I don't have a logical answer beyond its incredibly sexy to think of her being pleased in every way and having this hot intense physical act unfolding in front of me. She's bi and has had a girl date once during our relationship and there was no issues there either.

 

So answering this question has become a bit of an issue. Even though a lot of this has been brought to the table by her, she's taken it personally and likened it to "throwing an old shoe to a dog". It's pretty hell and gone from reality and I've told her I could care less about pursuing any of this if she has any doubts or discomforts. But I do need to answer this for her one way or another. The problem is I can't verbalize it. I've explained the difference between physical and emotional and that I'd never let anyone have her emotionally. I've tried to explain that it's not degrading her, but idolizing her and putting her on a pedestal and having her worshipped... of sorts. But I guess she's looking for something more tangible since she's used to conventional roles where anyone else she's ever dated would kill her for even bringing this fantasy up. It ends up where she feels like she doesn't have any value to me in they scenario.

 

So it's a little confusing. Has anyone been through this before?

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I can't say that we experienced exactly the same thing, but I will agree the "why we swing" answer can be one that is hard to put into words. It's easy to say "it's hot" or "it's exciting" and those are true, but they just begin to scratch the surface. Swinging has all sorts of facets to it, and the emotional and physical mix is complex. Too, nearly everyone is programmed from birth that the typical monogamous relationship is the norm and the ideal, so that's what we know how to talk about. Even if you have been swinging for a while, it's can be more difficult to talk about swinging relationships since you don't have as much practice at it.

 

My advice would just continue to do what you are doing - be honest, and try to put your feelings into words the best you can. If your relationship is a good one, which it sounds like it is, then she will know what you are trying to tell her even though you may not state it as perfectly as you would like.

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Welcome to the forum, Chickn70!

 

Your second paragraph actually sounds very much like intuition897's post:

 

intuition897 said:
I agree completely. The dynamic of swinging has turned on its head everything we have come to understand about safety, security, love and trust. In vanilla relationships, you show one another how deep your love is by how far you can put others from your mind. The ideal is to be so "in love" with your spouse/partner that they blot out every interest in other partners, leaving you obsessed and dependent on them...thus boosting their feelings of emotional security.

 

In a swinging relationship, you express love by saying, "I love you so much I am willing to forego those feelings of being idolized and give you back your sexuality so you can be yourself...which is who I fell in love with." Oddly enough, there's greater personal power to be had when you offer your partner this kind of freedom. Compare a well-trained dog on a leash with a 250 lb timber wolf that follows you everywhere you go, eats out of your hand, does as you ask because he wants to, and would tear to pieces anything that threatened you. I have a predatory nature, too. If I see that I have an effect on a man, it catches my attention like a rabbit catches a big cat's attention. I want to circle him, push his buttons, make him do what I want, eat him alive and leave him standing there with his hair all fucked up wondering what the hell just happened to him. It's getting worse now that I'm old enough to know exactly what I want and have thrown off the fear of going right after it. Kind of scary actually. That is who I am, and I don't think I'll ever fully subdue that part of my nature. I can, of course, but it makes both of us feel less whole to do so.

 

Another thing I've noticed about really good relationships is that you're more concerned about your spouse's happiness than your own. In fact, you require their happiness to find your own. You forget about your own happiness, and can be relaxed because you know that your partner takes care of that for you...because he needs YOUR happiness to find his. You see that disregard for his or herself for your sake and it inspires nurturing, protective feelings that one might associate with pair-bonding.

 

cplnuswing is correct...the social programming/conditioning that the majority of people are brought up in can make it very difficult to understand why anyone would want/be happy with extra-marital sex. We're taught that extra marital sex = cheating but that isn't really true because it's a lot more complex than that. When we first began our journey in swinging, I found this site and did lots and lots of reading and it helped immensely to understand the nuances that are contained when a couple swings. Perhaps you can share this site with her, have her do her own research and come to terms on why couples "let someone screw" them.

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How does she react when you suggest other things outside her comfort zone, like hiking in the Andes(vanilla stuff)? Have you been there with her in that kind of situation before? Does she react similarly, or does she follow your lead? I think it's pretty normal for people to get conflicting emotions about activities outside their own comfort zones.

 

Is it typical of her to be 'unclear' regarding her needs and wants? You can't improve her life if you don't know what she wants.

 

Have you examined the WIFM's (what's in it for me, business axiom)...what does she have to lose versus gain, what do you lose versus gain?

 

What's her biggest fear?

What's yours?

 

Why swing at all? For both of you?

 

We went through a lot of that as we got involved. The surprising thing was how much closer it made us with out any actual swinging.

 

For us I learned more about what my wife wanted from our 'quality' time together. Remember the time you put into this is time taken away from something else!?!?

 

There's a lot on this forum about the 'communication' that has to happen, hopefully this will give you some guidelines.

 

Love to hear more about what happens.

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Guest sandraandalex

Do all questions require answers. After all, you may not realize the 'truth' until you're experiencing the moment. When we first swung, we had a 'no crime, no foul 'point of view. We realized we wouldn't know if we liked it or not until we actually tried it. So, we experienced the moment without a single rule or expectation. If afterwards we didn't want to do it again, so be it. Humans tend to overanalyze experiences, especially when sex is involved. Why did I fuck him ? He seemed like a lot of fun ! Why did I kiss her ? She seemed like she'd enjoy it. It's sex, not an epiphany where all things are revealed.

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Do all questions require answers. After all, you may not realize the 'truth' until you're experiencing the moment. When we first swung, we had a 'no crime, no foul 'point of view. We realized we wouldn't know if we liked it or not until we actually tried it. So, we experienced the moment without a single rule or expectation. If afterwards we didn't want to do it again, so be it. Humans tend to overanalyze experiences, especially when sex is involved. Why did I fuck him ? He seemed like a lot of fun ! Why did I kiss her ? She seemed like she'd enjoy it. It's sex, not an epiphany where all things are revealed.

 

While I understand what you're saying and in some instances, yes, you won't get answers to all questions...I think the issue his girlfriend is having is that she is used to the men she dates equating possessiveness and jealousy as being proof that they love her. After all, a lot of people think that a testament of one's love means being strictly monogamous to that one person, sexually and emotionally. Straying from that notion must mean that they don't love you as much as they thought. But as we swingers know, it's a lot more telling when we let go of those notions and our partner is free to have sex with others (or love others as well) and they still come home to us. As intuition897 said, there's a big difference between having a dog follow our lead when they are leashed than to have them have the ability to roam around free yet still choose to be by our side.

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Thanks for the feedback all! I've showed her this thread and asked if there was anything she wanted to add. First off she's very interested in this but hesitant and concerned about feelings afterwards. As she's put it, she's very spontaneous and would be up for anything in the Heat of the moment. But she is afraid of the 'after'

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Also an open relationship is well beyond what we'd be looking for, but I'm assuming the concerns and the answers to those concerns would be the same. This is something we'd be looking to experience and share together as a couple, not separately, and not out on our own.

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Thanks for the feedback all! I've showed her this thread and asked if there was anything she wanted to add. First off she's very interested in this but hesitant and concerned about feelings afterwards. As she's put it, she's very spontaneous and would be up for anything in the Heat of the moment. But she is afraid of the 'after'

 

I think it depends on her definition of "spontaneous"...many of us go to a swinger club/party/event or meet one-on-one with another couple knowing that we're meeting up with the chance of sex. For some, that's not really spontaneous. For others, it's spontaneous enough but also safe enough in terms of concerns about discretion, knowing the other couple is on the same page, and whatnot.

 

As for the "after"...this is where sandraandalex is correct. You can play out thousands of "what ifs" but you won't know until you go through with it. The key is to be open, honest, and communicate about each others fears, concerns, desires, etc. before, during, and after swinging experiences. As long as you both value each other and the relationship, you both should want to work through any bumps that come along.

 

Also an open relationship is well beyond what we'd be looking for, but I'm assuming the concerns and the answers to those concerns would be the same. This is something we'd be looking to experience and share together as a couple, not separately, and not out on our own.

 

An open marriage means different things to different people. For us, just because we swing doesn't mean we have an open marriage. We see an open marriage as a "free for all" for both partners. They can have sex with anyone they want without checking to see if it is okay with the other partner. For other couples, they have a different definition. For you two, it sounds like you would want to swing together, same room, whether that includes swapping or not. And that's swinging, too. Some couples only have sex with each other (no swapping) but with others in the same room. Others engage in soft swapping which is kissing, touching, oral sex but no penetration. Then there's full swapping (penetration), cuckolding, hotwifing, exhibitionist, voyeurism, and many others. Swinging is an umbrella for all types of sexual activities.

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Finally home and can read on a standard size screen and full keyboard. whew!

 

I really really appreciate any and all the feedback, all. It's great having an outlet where we can get experienced and honest opinions like this. I'm sorry I haven't directly addressed some of the responses, it's a little tedious to do on an iPhone with a temperamental autocorrect, lol.

 

I know she's read this thread and we've been talking over the course of the day and I'm hoping some of this has helped, as she does seem more at ease. We're going to talk further through the weekend, establish our rules, boundaries and expectations, safe words, and then go from there. We've decided that we'll go check into a semi-local club and check things out. We've both agreed that we won't engage in anything the first visit and re-evaluate after that.

 

Having never been to a club before, Would we be out of line asking other couples about things? Coming in as a new couple, is there anything we should expect? Are other attendees receptive to talking to newbies without the chance of sex so long as we're honest about intentions?

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You wouldn't be out of line at all, and I think you will find that nearly all will be more than willing to help with no strings attached at all. If you get there early enough and ask, many clubs will offer a tour, orientation session, or whatever you want to call it. I think you would find that valuable too and will help to set your mind at ease and make your first club visit even more fun.

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she's actually suggested swinging.

Over the course of the discussions she's asked me why I'd want to let someone screw her.

I've explained the difference between physical and emotional and that I'd never let anyone have her emotionally. I've tried to explain that it's not degrading her, but idolizing her and putting her on a pedestal and having her worshipped... of sorts. But I guess she's looking for something more tangible since she's used to conventional roles where anyone else she's ever dated would kill her for even bringing this fantasy up. It ends up where she feels like she doesn't have any value to me in they scenario.

 

So it's a little confusing. Has anyone been through this before?

 

Reading posts on here makes you think. Reading yours yesterday made me stop and think and started a conversation last night. I asked my husband, why did you let me sleep with the first couple we met. Our experience is different than yours in that we never had a true conversation before we just jumped into this. We met a couple, on vacation, and switched partners. Looking back, that was crazy. Yes I was nervous, going to his room, a little giddy too. Unplanned and at the time no guilt. It wasn't until the next morning when I went back to my room and my husband and this other woman were still in bed. They were not having sex but they were in a position I haven awakened to many many mornings, him spooning. I admit some jealousy but we went on with our vacation and had more experiences with them. But last night I asked my husband why he let me sleep with him the first time. He asked me why did I let him sleep with her. Truth is I didn't have an answer either. We had just met them on vacation, spending time with them. We never even talked about swinging and we ended up in different beds. He asked me if I had regrets. No. Did I enjoy? Yes. He asked me if I liked ice cream and I said that is a bad analogy. He said you like ice cream and don't have guilt eating it. Well, I do. Do I enjoy doing new things and exploring. We both do. He asked if I like trying new foods. He said I never had conch before and I tried it. Thought that was funny because of what it sounded like and it was my not as pleasant try at what that sounds like too. He said we are inquisitive. We find out by trying new things. (he thinks he is so smart) He asked if I like sex. haha. Why did I have sex with him the first time? I liked him, that's why. What about the men before him. I said I liked them. And this man? I said it's different, I'm married now. He said to me that we love each other and there are other experiences that only are suppressed because of what others say. It is only a morale issue if others make it to be or you have feelings it is wrong.

Tell her you are happy she has fantasies and wants to act them out. You don't want another man to have sex with her, you want her to enjoy what she wants to do. On a final note we went to sleep after having oral sex. Morally wrong to some and legally wrong in many states still.

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...it's a little tedious to do on an iPhone with a temperamental autocorrect, lol.

 

Personal opinion...Apple is the devil

 

I know she's read this thread and we've been talking over the course of the day and I'm hoping some of this has helped, as she does seem more at ease. We're going to talk further through the weekend, establish our rules, boundaries and expectations, safe words, and then go from there. We've decided that we'll go check into a semi-local club and check things out. We've both agreed that we won't engage in anything the first visit and re-evaluate after that.

 

There's no such thing as too much communication. Even if nothing ever happens you two will (hopefully) always be able to communicate better (always a good thing). Just keep it up until you can both decide what you want to do and then enjoy it.

 

Having never been to a club before, Would we be out of line asking other couples about things? Coming in as a new couple, is there anything we should expect? Are other attendees receptive to talking to newbies without the chance of sex so long as we're honest about intentions?

 

No, most everyone we've met is more than happy to talk and help others, especially new couples, along. Expect nothing but a good time, especially your first trip to a club, and you will always at least meet those expectations. You will find that most people involved are VERY respectful of others and will not expect anything from you until you two are ready (if you ever are ready). We were all here right where you are with the same questions and fears that you are experiencing. Unfortunately, you will never know how something is going to work out until after you have taken that step off of the cliff. Most everyone understands this and wants to make that step as gentle as possible. I say 'most everyone' just because you may occasionally run across that exception to the rule, but 99% of the people involved are very respectful and understanding. Let us know how things progress.

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While I understand what you're saying and in some instances, yes, you won't get answers to all questions...I think the issue his girlfriend is having is that she is used to the men she dates equating possessiveness and jealousy as being proof that they love her. After all, a lot of people think that a testament of one's love means being strictly monogamous to that one person, sexually and emotionally. Straying from that notion must mean that they don't love you as much as they thought. But as we swingers know, it's a lot more telling when we let go of those notions and our partner is free to have sex with others (or love others as well) and they still come home to us. As intuition897 said, there's a big difference between having a dog follow our lead when they are leashed than to have them have the ability to roam around free yet still choose to be by our side.

 

That's exactly my thought. There's not a jealous bone in my body, and most women are fine with that. I've been in relationships with women who were actually offended by that; taking it as a sign that I didn't care; more precisely that I didn't find them desirable enough to be jealous of them. Like Sunbuckus says, that goes very deep, often from childhood.

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Any answer you give is at best hypothetical. You really won't know until you do it and maybe not until you have done it several times. Some guys fantasize about seeing their wife take it from another man, either orally or vaginally, but when they see they suddenly have jealousy or remorse. And remember, the 2nd male participant is dong it for a different reason than the hubby or boyfriend. We have been in 8 or 10 MFM. I did the first because I enjoy being fucked and thought it would be like getting two candy bars instead of just one, and hubby was good with it and seemingly somewhat excited by the thought of it. While I do enjoy that aspect of it, I actually find the open flirtation with another man as the part that really excites me and motivates me to create the situation. But I have also found that the experiences have given me a great deal more self confidence in dealing with and being around men.

 

I think hubby, on the other hand, participated in the first one as a necessary step to get me into swaps, foursomes and moresomes. During the post game analyzing of our first time, he expressed surprise at how comfortable I was sucking someone else, and that he had a bit of jealousy or of questioning the whole thing, when he saw me enjoying being fucked by the other guy. On the other hand, he said has reaffirmed that I give my best oral sex when someones else is going down or fucking me. He concluded that alone was worth it. ;) I would say he still enjoys that aspect of it but also is excited by "seeing me be a slut," his words but entirely fine with me. I like thinking I am one, probably too many years of being told you had to be a good girl. Things he has mentioned in the definition vary from his dick getting a flutter when I am next to him bar, chatting it up with the guy next to me and seeing me discretely undo a button or moving down a zipper so more cleavage shows, or sliding the skirt or dress up a bit to show more leg or moving my legs to the other side of the stool to give the guy a better view. Coming back from the ladies room, discretely handing him my undies or slipping them in his coat pocket, a sign that I am moving forward with this, puts him at half mast. At the other end of that are more at the almost losing your load end of the definition might include watching me as I try to suck both dicks, or sucking the other guys balls, swallowing a load or sucking a dick after the guy cums. His responses to these types of things have only given me the confidence to do more.

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I always advise those thinking about swinging to watch Swing. There's a new season starting but you can still get all the old episodes. It's great to watch it as a couple and discuss what's going on in the show to see how each of you feel about it. There's also a new spin off called Swing Open House which has the former new couples who turned into resident couples talking about their journeys. I think they show breaks down many stigmas attached to the Lifestyle.

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Thanks for the suggestion. We've been watching the show. It's quite addicting and I do like how they seem to cover a lot of different situations and results. Just started season 2.

 

We keep talking openly and have a night booked at a club for this Saturday. Nothing happening the first time out but looking forward to the experience and see if she wants to take it further or not.

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