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  1. Back To Top | #26

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    Rabbyt,

    While I'm sure you are up to your armpits in different perspectives on how to broach this rather touchy subject to your wife by now, I'm a firm believer in not making things any more complicated than they need to be.

    Insofar as swinging is concerned, you are obviously aware that caution is indicated in how you bring up the subject to Ms. Rabbyt, especially since you have indicated she's a bit insecure about herself (although from the way you describe her, she sounds like a major babe...

    So, the first step is to find out how she is apt to respond to this subject in general terms, as this will go a long way towards determining if you want to pursue the matter with her.

    Some evening, perhaps after the two of you have shared some nice, mind-blowing cums and are engaging in a bit of after-action pillow talk, casually bring up the subject to her. But do it something like this; "Say, sweetie, I ran across the damndest thing the other day while surfing the net. It was a web site for people (say "people", not "couples"; keep it as innocuous as possible initially) who are into something called swinging".

    (Obviously you can phrase this statement any way you want, with variations determined by what you figure she already knows, what she thinks you already know about subjects like this, etc. The trick is to phrase it in such a way as to indicate it's something distant, remote, having little or no effect on her. Sort of like saying "Did you know that most marriages in Japan are still "arranged" by the families?" You get the idea.)

    At this point, pause a second and give her a chance to say something. Her response may range from "Swinging? What's that?" to "Swinging?!?! Ohh, yuck. Wife swappers. How disgusting!"

    Naturally, if her response is something like the latter, it's best to drop it right then and forget about it, at least in the short term.

    But if her response is more like the former ("What's swinging?" or the like), give her a general description of the idea, based on what you "found" on the web site. And in a sense, this is true; you just found out about this lifestyle recently, and on the net...

    Either way, it will be dicey at this point, as we don't know how she might react to such a concept, so be careful. You will have to temper your responses accordingly.

    If she responds positively, or at least neutral, give her some of the info you've learned, and I would emphasize how much the women are in control of the whole thing (but then, the women are always in control; else you would not be jumping through all these hoops..., and how much pleasure they get from it, etc. But even then, do not make any direct suggestions that the two of you might want to do this. Lay some of the information on her, but then casually change the subject. Give her time to think on it.

    On the other hand, if she responds in a negative fashion, especially something along the lines of "What? Do you want to have sex with other women!?!", etc, start backpedaling, lie if you have to, and drop the subject. The most you can hope for is that you've planted the seed with her, and perhaps some time in the future, maybe when you all are older and she's not so insecure, you might bring it up again.

    (Along about now, some self-righteous dingdong is going to get up and start bitching about me telling this guy to lie to his wife if he has to. Well, you are not the one who has to live with this man's wife, especially if she gets her panties in a major wad over this. As I have stated before in this forum, a certain amount of lying is necessary in most any relationship at one time or another just to keep the peace; the trick is to differentiate between a harmless "white" lie and a malicious one.)

    Believe me, rabbyt, there is a reason most couples do not swing. Women are anthropologically hard-wired to keep under strict control not only who gets access to their pussies, but the cocks of the males they are married to or otherwise seriously involved with. This goes back to our Stone Age origins. It takes a powerful mind for a woman to override that programming and learn to enjoy the purely recreational sex one has in swinging.

    Of course, once she makes that leap, she quickly discovers she still has as much control over herself and you as she did before. The only difference is that she can now enjoy the different flavors and levels of sexual pleasure one can find with different sexual playmates. The trick here will be for you to help your honey make that transition. I hope it works out well for both of you.

    Bear

  2. Back To Top | #27

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    Originally posted by bear_n_bunny

    (Along about now, some self-righteous dingdong is going to get up and start bitching about me telling this guy to lie to his wife if he has to. Well, you are not the one who has to live with this man's wife, especially if she gets her panties in a major wad over this. As I have stated before in this forum, a certain amount of lying is necessary in most any relationship at one time or another just to keep the peace; the trick is to differentiate between a harmless "white" lie and a malicious one.)
    Bear
    Bear:
    I think your suggestions, from the male perspective, are quite good. I have a bit of trouble sometimes with your "macho-male" attitudes (in this and other postings), but truthfully, when I step back and try to look at things from the male perspective (as best I can), I can usually understand where you are coming from or headed to.

    I don't think your suggestions are necessarily a lie. I believe it was more along the line of the "manipulation" I was talking about earlier. And while most everyone will say they don't like a manipulator or being manipulated, we all do it in one way or the other although I believe it is generally without conscious intent.

    Rabbyt:
    From the female perspective (maybe the "macho-female ), I would merely like to reinforce the idea that along the way of attempting to introduce Ms. Rabbyt to the idea, you reinforce your feelings for her - your emotional and sexual desire for her, and particularly your love for her alone. As you work on that aspect, along with Bear's suggestions, you will be increasing her self-confidence and ego, as well as opening all of those doors of communication that are spoken of so frequently. -EBF

  3. Back To Top | #28

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    Having been in the position where my "introduction" was less than charming, loving and presented in a way that my heart almost leapt out of my chest, I would STRONGLY agree that to proceed with caution. A GREAT deal of caution. Had we (or he) done things a whole lot differently, I wouldn't be going through some of the mind bending things that I had to.
    The bottom line (not to be mean) is that you do want to have sex with another woman, but hopefully, you can do so in a way that doesn't demoralize and endanger your relationship. Having been married for 20+ years, it is very important to let her know (assuming that she is important to you and you don't want to lose her or your relationship over being anxious to start swinging) that this is something that you BOTH can do, and there are benefits to her (I am still trying to figure that one out, I am very well aware of the benefits to my husband). Perhaps you can avoid the pit that I fell into.

    Yeah everyone....it's been a rough weekend so far. I just had to add my caution too.

  4. Back To Top | #29

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by bear_n_bunny
    Rabbyt,

    Insofar as swinging is concerned, you are obviously aware that caution is indicated in how you bring up the subject to Ms. Rabbyt, especially since you have indicated she's a bit insecure about herself (although from the way you describe her, she sounds like a major babe...


    After reading all the advice I've got so far, I'm not even thinking about swinging with her at the moment. I'm going to spend some time working on how open our communication is and getting us to the point where we can discuss ANYTHING as well as making sure she knows how beautiful she is and how I will always love her. And yes, she is a major babe, I think the biggest problem she (and I) would face at a party would be fighting off everyone trying to hit on her.

    On the other hand, if she responds in a negative fashion, especially something along the lines of "What? Do you want to have sex with other women!?!", etc, start backpedaling, lie if you have to, and drop the subject. The most you can hope for is that you've planted the seed with her, and perhaps some time in the future, maybe when you all are older and she's not so insecure, you might bring it up again.

    Before I get to the point of casually bringing it up, I want to get to the point of our communication and relationship being such that I wouldn't have to even think about lying to her. I want to be able to say that it turns me on and I'd love to try it but if you don't, that's fine with me too. I think that in this situation, (1) - if we are at that point, there is a greater likelihood that she'd be open to trying and experimenting with new things and (2) Even if she was vehemently against it, the very fact that I investigated all this will have had an enormously positive benefit to our relationship and sex life anyway. In fact, our sex in the past week has probably been the best sex we've ever had and I'm sure that's a result of the erotic thoughts I've had in the past week and it rubbing off on her as we've made love.

    Of course, once she makes that leap, she quickly discovers she still has as much control over herself and you as she did before. The only difference is that she can now enjoy the different flavors and levels of sexual pleasure one can find with different sexual playmates. The trick here will be for you to help your honey make that transition. I hope it works out well for both of you.

    We all only have one life and one chance to explore ourselves as freely as we can so I want to give both of us a chance to do this if it's possible. Thanks for your advice.

  5. Back To Top | #30

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    Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
    Rabbyt:
    From the female perspective (maybe the "macho-female ), I would merely like to reinforce the idea that along the way of attempting to introduce Ms. Rabbyt to the idea, you reinforce your feelings for her - your emotional and sexual desire for her, and particularly your love for her alone. As you work on that aspect, along with Bear's suggestions, you will be increasing her self-confidence and ego, as well as opening all of those doors of communication that are spoken of so frequently. -EBF
    From your post and some of the others I have gained a greater appreciation of how important this is. When she tends to talk down about herself, her body, her looks etc... in the past I have been somewhat dismissive with comments like "Don't be silly", as she is so sexy and beautiful. I think my response should be to let her know what I'm thinking and what anyone else would and over time get her to believe that she really does look great and can be confident about herself.

  6. Back To Top | #31

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    Originally posted by Tarnished Halo
    Having been in the position where my "introduction" was less than charming, loving and presented in a way that my heart almost leapt out of my chest, I would STRONGLY agree that to proceed with caution. A GREAT deal of caution. Had we (or he) done things a whole lot differently, I wouldn't be going through some of the mind bending things that I had to.

    That's why I'm so glad that I found this board as the advice has been great. I can't imagine how people years ago without these resources got the help they needed.

    [B}The bottom line (not to be mean) is that you do want to have sex with another woman, but hopefully, you can do so in a way that doesn't demoralize and endanger your relationship.[/B]

    I had to think about this long and hard as I didn't want to come across wrongly. However, my coming across the book was just an occurance. Up to that time, I was not looking for variety in sexual partners nor was I even thinking about having sex with any other women. Sure the very fact of swinging means that this would/may occur and yes that sounds like a lot of fun, but it's not the primary reason that I have started to explore this. My No.1 reason would be for the potential benefits to our relationship as we become able to be erotic together and discuss anything and everything. The other reasons are the sense of community and belonging to a group of people who I would respect for their liberal views as well as the desire to see my wife experience untold joys and experience some myself. It's certainly not just about me having sex with other women.

    Having been married for 20+ years, it is very important to let her know (assuming that she is important to you and you don't want to lose her or your relationship over being anxious to start swinging) that this is something that you BOTH can do, and there are benefits to her (I am still trying to figure that one out, I am very well aware of the benefits to my husband). Perhaps you can avoid the pit that I fell into.

    If we couldn't do it together, I wouldn't want to do it at all. I haven't looked for any other sexual fulfillment in my life except with my wife and if it wasn't for reading that book I still wouldn't be. I genuinely believe there are benefits to both of a couple of getting rid of the dirty, naughty, wrong embarassing feelings of sex that I was certainly brought up with.

    Yeah everyone....it's been a rough weekend so far. I just had to add my caution too.
    Sorry to hear that, and I really hope that things get a lot better for you.

  7. Back To Top | #32

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    Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
    Bear:
    I think your suggestions, from the male perspective, are quite good. I have a bit of trouble sometimes with your "macho-male" attitudes (in this and other postings), but truthfully, when I step back and try to look at things from the male perspective (as best I can), I can usually understand where you are coming from or headed to.
    Thank you, although I'd like to know what you mean by "macho-male" attitudes.

    I don't think your suggestions are necessarily a lie. I believe it was more along the line of the "manipulation" I was talking about earlier. And while most everyone will say they don't like a manipulator or being manipulated, we all do it in one way or the other although I believe it is generally without conscious intent.
    Quite right, although I would maintain that most of us know when we are doing it, at least on some level. Call it a white lie, manipulation or what-have-you, we have all done it on occasion, if for no other reason than to smooth over those little bumps in the road of life couples run into from time to time, especially when dealing with your S.O.'s insecurities. It's not pleasant, but sometimes it's necessary.


    Rabbyt:
    From the female perspective (maybe the "macho-female ), I would merely like to reinforce the idea that along the way of attempting to introduce Ms. Rabbyt to the idea, you reinforce your feelings for her - your emotional and sexual desire for her, and particularly your love for her alone. As you work on that aspect, along with Bear's suggestions, you will be increasing her self-confidence and ego, as well as opening all of those doors of communication that are spoken of so frequently. -EBF
    Very, very well put.

    Bear

  8. Back To Top | #33

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabbyt
    Originally posted by bear_n_bunny
    Rabbyt,

    Insofar as swinging is concerned, you are obviously aware that caution is indicated in how you bring up the subject to Ms. Rabbyt, especially since you have indicated she's a bit insecure about herself (although from the way you describe her, she sounds like a major babe...


    After reading all the advice I've got so far, I'm not even thinking about swinging with her at the moment. I'm going to spend some time working on how open our communication is and getting us to the point where we can discuss ANYTHING as well as making sure she knows how beautiful she is and how I will always love her. And yes, she is a major babe, I think the biggest problem she (and I) would face at a party would be fighting off everyone trying to hit on her.
    I think you are taking the right approach here. Swinging can be a lot of fun, but it is certainly not the end-all and be-all of our existence, something some swingers forget, IMNSHO. In the spirit of not putting the cart before the horse, these other issues need to be cleared up long before the two of you consider approaching a lifestyle such as this.

    Putting the subject of swinging aside, having the sort of open communication you allude to is imperative for a successful marriage, regardless of what activities you might like to get into at some point. Take the word of someone who has had marriages and relationships crash and burn because of communication problems.

    Something else that I would urge you to work on with her is why she seems to think she's not the gorgeous babe you say she is. That ain't normal. I have almost never met an attractive woman who did not know full well she was attractive and did not act accordingly. And those who did not had some personal issues they needed to work on; issues based on something that had happened to them in their pasts. So I would definitely check into this. A lot of things will fall into place after these issues are dealt with.

    In any case, it sounds to me like Ms. Rabbyt is lucky to have you, and I wish you both all the best.

    Bear

  9. Back To Top | #34

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    Originally posted by bear_n_bunny
    Thank you, although I'd like to know what you mean by "macho-male" attitudes.
    Bear
    I'm not good enough on this Board to go back and quote more than one thing at a time, but earlier in the post you said:

    Believe me, rabbyt, there is a reason most couples do not swing. Women are anthropologically hard-wired to keep under strict control not only who gets access to their pussies, but the cocks of the males they are married to or otherwise seriously involved with. This goes back to our Stone Age origins. It takes a powerful mind for a woman to override that programming and learn to enjoy the purely recreational sex one has in swinging. Believe me, rabbyt, there is a reason most couples do not swing. Women are anthropologically hard-wired to keep under strict control not only who gets access to their pussies, but the cocks of the males they are married to or otherwise seriously involved with. This goes back to our Stone Age origins. It takes a powerful mind for a woman to override that programming and learn to enjoy the purely recreational sex one has in swinging.

    Came across to me as being a bit on the "macho-male" side. No offense intended, and I hope none taken and especially since I would probably be considered the female equivalent of the "macho-male." And I like it that way.

    Anyway, in some of your other posts you've come across to me in somewhat the same manner. Maybe describing my impression of you as being direct, straight-talking, no BS, calling a spade a spade type of person would be a better description. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading what you have to say and it generally makes a whole lot of sense.

    Questions/comments? -EBF

  10. Back To Top | #35

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    Originally posted by Tarnished Halo
    Having been in the position where my "introduction" was less than charming, loving and presented in a way that my heart almost leapt out of my chest, I would STRONGLY agree that to proceed with caution. A GREAT deal of caution. Had we (or he) done things a whole lot differently, I wouldn't be going through some of the mind bending things that I had to.
    The bottom line (not to be mean) is that you do want to have sex with another woman, but hopefully, you can do so in a way that doesn't demoralize and endanger your relationship. Having been married for 20+ years, it is very important to let her know (assuming that she is important to you and you don't want to lose her or your relationship over being anxious to start swinging) that this is something that you BOTH can do, and there are benefits to her (I am still trying to figure that one out, I am very well aware of the benefits to my husband). Perhaps you can avoid the pit that I fell into.

    Yeah everyone....it's been a rough weekend so far. I just had to add my caution too.
    I'm sorry, but after reading this, I fervently hope that you and your hubby are NOT swinging. Because based on your comments here, you have about as much business swinging as a four-year-old has holding a loaded .45.

    Bear

  11. Back To Top | #36

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    Originally posted by Elusive BiFem
    I'm not good enough on this Board to go back and quote more than one thing at a time, but earlier in the post you said:

    Believe me, rabbyt, there is a reason most couples do not swing. Women are anthropologically hard-wired to keep under strict control not only who gets access to their pussies, but the cocks of the males they are married to or otherwise seriously involved with. This goes back to our Stone Age origins. It takes a powerful mind for a woman to override that programming and learn to enjoy the purely recreational sex one has in swinging. Believe me, rabbyt, there is a reason most couples do not swing. Women are anthropologically hard-wired to keep under strict control not only who gets access to their pussies, but the cocks of the males they are married to or otherwise seriously involved with. This goes back to our Stone Age origins. It takes a powerful mind for a woman to override that programming and learn to enjoy the purely recreational sex one has in swinging.

    Came across to me as being a bit on the "macho-male" side. No offense intended, and I hope none taken and especially since I would probably be considered the female equivalent of the "macho-male." And I like it that way.

    Anyway, in some of your other posts you've come across to me in somewhat the same manner. Maybe describing my impression of you as being direct, straight-talking, no BS, calling a spade a spade type of person would be a better description. Nonetheless, I enjoy reading what you have to say and it generally makes a whole lot of sense.

    Questions/comments? -EBF
    OK, I can see your point. And you are quite correct in that I am indeed a direct, no-BS, tell-it-like-it-is sort of person. And I have to say that the idea of being circumspect about things like certain terms for genitalia and whatnot (I'm sure some people find this a bit jarring, but what the hell; it's not like we are discussing computer engineering or bird watching here), strikes me as faintly ridiculous on a swinger's forum of all places...

    As for the specifics of my quote, in case you did not already know this, they are factually accurate, although I'm sure I was a bit blunt for those with, um, more delicate sensibilities.... Ask any anthropologist.

    However, thank you for your comments and I'll keep them in mind.

    Bear

  12. Back To Top | #37

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    Before I get to the point of casually bringing it up, I want to get to the point of our communication and relationship being such that I wouldn't have to even think about lying to her. I want to be able to say that it turns me on and I'd love to try it but if you don't, that's fine with me too. I think that in this situation, (1) - if we are at that point, there is a greater likelihood that she'd be open to trying and experimenting with new things and (2) Even if she was vehemently against it, the very fact that I investigated all this will have had an enormously positive benefit to our relationship and sex life anyway. In fact, our sex in the past week has probably been the best sex we've ever had and I'm sure that's a result of the erotic thoughts I've had in the past week and it rubbing off on her as we've made love.


    Rabbyt, from your posts it seems to me that you're already there...I know it's scary but it sounds to me like your relationahip is such that you caould be open and honest with sharing your fantasies without neagative responses from your wife. If you do decide to open up more, let us know the reults!.

  13. Back To Top | #38

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    Originally posted by Buck
    Rabbyt, from your posts it seems to me that you're already there...I know it's scary but it sounds to me like your relationahip is such that you could be open and honest with sharing your fantasies without negative responses from your wife. If you do decide to open up more, let us know the reults!.
    Thanks for your thoughts Buck and although I wouldn't have thought it a couple of weeks ago, I think you just may be right.
    Look at the next message for an update on how things are going.

  14. Back To Top | #39

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    JUST AN UPDATE

    I just wanted to post an update on how things are going.

    We have received our books and have been reading and talking in the evening to each other and having absolutely mindblowing sex compared to what we were doing before. We have shared a number of fantasies with each other and one of hers was to have 2 girls giving me oral at once. WOW! I felt braver and asked her if she would like to have another guy's cock in her as she was giving me oral and she responded positively. So as far as fantasies go we are definitely on the same wavelength.

    We went online shopping together for sex toys the other day and bought a vibrator, cock ring, an anal starter kit, plenty of lube, some sexy underwear etc. We then looked over the DVD's available and in the instructional section I suggested that we each choose one. I chose 'Nina Hartley's guide to couples sexploration. What knocked me out was she chose 'Nina Hartley's guide to Swinging'.
    They should arrive next week and I can't wait to watch them with her.

    Finally, I have never felt closer to her and she has expressed the same to me. We are doing lots of little things for each other that can easily be taken for granted, kissing, hugging and groping each other throughout the day and talking so much more to each other. We go to sleep at night after fantastic sex so happy with each other and it still seems to be there in the morning. I really believe our relationship is better at the moment than even the exciting times when we first met.

    A huge thanks to everyone on here for their advice as if it stopped right here and nothing went any further, we have already achieved so much in developing our relationship.

  15. Back To Top | #40

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    Dontcha love it when a plan comes together ....
    J

  16. Back To Top | #41

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    Awesome, Rabbyt!
    Remember that human beings are complicated creatures. We like our bedtime routines but dislike routine in our bed times. - Sallie Foley, M.S.W.

  17. Back To Top | #42

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    Excellent! I'm very happy for you!

    -B
    "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
    All about us...

  18. Back To Top | #43

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Rabbyt
    [B]JUST AN UPDATE
    Finally, I have never felt closer to her and she has expressed the same to me. We are doing lots of little things for each other that can easily be taken for granted, kissing, hugging and groping each other throughout the day and talking so much more to each other. We go to sleep at night after fantastic sex so happy with each other and it still seems to be there in the morning. I really believe our relationship is better at the moment than even the exciting times when we first met.


    Hey Rabbyt, sounds like things have progressed pretty nicely for you and your wife. Based upon my experience, I felt strongly that you two were coming closer together with your fantasies, etc. You're passing me up time-frame wise. Its took years for us to get to the point you are now. Years ago, I wish I would have had the benefit of the advice and support that this board provides. I still haven't had the nerve to introduce my wife to it although I think she's ready. Have you?

  19. Back To Top | #44

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    Originally posted by Buck
    Hey Rabbyt, sounds like things have progressed pretty nicely for you and your wife. Based upon my experience, I felt strongly that you two were coming closer together with your fantasies, etc. You're passing me up time-frame wise. Its took years for us to get to the point you are now. Years ago, I wish I would have had the benefit of the advice and support that this board provides. I still haven't had the nerve to introduce my wife to it although I think she's ready. Have you?
    Hi Buck,

    We have been reading fantasies of threesomes and we naturally got round to talking about swinging. Before I could bring it up she told me it was a fantasy of hers. I guess I was a little blown away but wow are we having fun discussing it.

    We've watched 2 dvd's on swinging, got some books on it and are discovering a lot in preparation for us going to visit a couples club. I also discovered that she was very bicurious and really looking forward to experimenting with another girl. It's been a wonderful discovery together and we have learnt so much about each other and feel more in love and compatible than ever. We are planning our first venture and are both very excited about it. There's been no pushing on either side, so I feel so comfortable taking this step pretty quickly. In fact she wants me to organise it soon.

    I hope you are able to bring it up yourself soon and get the same surprise/reaction as I have.

  20. Back To Top | #45

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    Originally posted by Rabbyt
    Hi Buck,

    We have been reading fantasies of threesomes and we naturally got round to talking about swinging. Before I could bring it up she told me it was a fantasy of hers. I guess I was a little blown away but wow are we having fun discussing it.

    We've watched 2 dvd's on swinging, got some books on it and are discovering a lot in preparation for us going to visit a couples club. I also discovered that she was very bicurious and really looking forward to experimenting with another girl. It's been a wonderful discovery together and we have learnt so much about each other and feel more in love and compatible than ever. We are planning our first venture and are both very excited about it. There's been no pushing on either side, so I feel so comfortable taking this step pretty quickly. In fact she wants me to organise it soon.

    I hope you are able to bring it up yourself soon and get the same surprise/reaction as I have.
    Rabbyt, I'm so happy for you! Things seem to be working out just fine...

    -B
    "If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything." - Mark Twain
    All about us...

  21. Back To Top | #46

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    Good to hear things are going so well. Sometimes we agonize about mentioning things only to find out the other person has been thinking the same thing but didn't know how to bring it up either. Life can be funny that way.

    Originally posted by Rabbyt
    It's been a wonderful discovery together and we have learnt so much about each other and feel more in love and compatible than ever.
    This is what supprised me the most when we first got involved with swinging and is what keeps us coming back. This feeling of closness is the most important aspect for us.

    Jesse

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